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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:13 pm 
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I mean, from what I've seen most guns don't recoil much, exceopt MGS...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:21 pm 
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I just hope that weapons "feel" powerful. I can't stand playing games like Call of Duty where a .30-06 sounds and acts like a plastic BB.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:18 pm 
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Most guns prior to the 1950's were sholder smashers. Recoil isn't really what most people complain about, it's actually muzzle climb. Games don't really over emphasize recoil as much as they do muzzle climb. I can tell you right now that one of the only games I've seen that incorporates recoil is CoD2. Everytime you shoot, your view moves with the recoil.

I want to see a truly accurate recoil system implemented in Alliance, even if it is "over done."

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:45 pm 
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Muzzle climb is probably the worst gaming convention. I mean, it just doesn't work well if, next thing you know you're shooting at the sky. Although, CSS had adecent appreoach where each gun had a peak muzzle climb.

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I just hope that weapons "feel" powerful. I can't stand playing games like Call of Duty where a .30-06 sounds and acts like a plastic BB.

Ironically, this is almost as much of a problem as over done recoil.

The key to this is make the weapon jerk back towards, you not making the weapon bounce around randomlylike a kangaro on crack.

One issue is deciding whether you want combine recoil/muzzle climb with POV "bounce"

I guesss why major complaints with today's recoil represention in games are :
1) Spread increasing to rapiddly
2) Reciol can serve as more than a visual distraction, as, in many game, it actually makes your cross hair bounce around. This is why I I don't like overdone recoil.




Hey, DerMann, you've fired automatic weapons before, right? How accurate would you say games represent kickback? Do guns really look like bouncing rubber balls or something when shot?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:39 am 
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What i wish, is that recoil will bounce your aiming straight upwards and NOT like in other "noob" spray and pray FPS-games. Like, randomly out in circles or randomly sideways.
Most games just make me pissed off. When the sights and scopes sway around like your charchter is holding the rifle with one hand, when shooting. The game "Joint Operations" have a nice feeling to recoil. With just straight recoil moves upwards and back to aiming circle. No fuzz around it. This makes the game more fun and realistic. Cus you can't still get the stance or holding rifle, like you will do it in real life. It's a game and should have recoil. BUT NO RANDOM MOVEMENTS TO IT... Keep the technique and strenght in elite level. KEEP RECOIL IN STRAIGHT UPWARD MOVEMENTS.

If you want to have the aiming more diffecult. Take a beer or two... :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:47 am 
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IceBallz wrote:
What i wish, is that recoil will bounce your aiming straight upwards and NOT like in other "noob" spray and pray FPS-games. Like, randomly out in circles or randomly sideways.
Most games just make me pissed off. When the sights and scopes sway around like your charchter is holding the rifle with one hand, when shooting. The game "Joint Operations" have a nice feeling to recoil. With just straight recoil moves upwards and back to aiming circle. No fuzz around it. This makes the game more fun and realistic. Cus you can't still get the stance or holding rifle, like you will do it in real life. It's a game and should have recoil. BUT NO RANDOM MOVEMENTS TO IT... Keep the technique and strenght in elite level. KEEP RECOIL IN STRAIGHT UPWARD MOVEMENTS.

If you want to have the aiming more diffecult. Take a beer or two... :lol:
It can depend on the gun and the shooter. I've seen some people with the PPSH-41 they can keep it level vertically but it will move horizontally.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:32 am 
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As I said before. Recoil is almost not a problem if you hold weapons correctly. Out of a Thompson and an automatic M16, niether had very much recoil, but I had trouble keeping the muzzle pointed at the target (muzzle climb). If I recall correctly, CoD2 had da pretty good system.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:36 pm 
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i hate DoD muzzle climb. almost impossible to use full auto weapons except the sub machine guns or bipod mounted weapons


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:08 pm 
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Same here.

Recoil, done right, is fine. Muzzle climb is just bad, period.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:10 pm 
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Uh, so you want an unrealistic game? The muzzle climb in DoD is not exagerated, I promise you.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:55 pm 
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DerMann wrote:
Uh, so you want an unrealistic game? The muzzle climb in DoD is not exagerated, I promise you.

Well, maybe just muzzle climb should be sacrifieced to ensure a good experience.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:23 pm 
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This isn't CS?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:02 am 
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What you guys are calling muzzle climb is the direct effect of recoil. They are one of the same. The reason a gun doesn't go strait back when you fire is because you are holding it against your shoulder (at least I hope). So the only direction is can really go is up. The cause of "random recoil" that isn't 100% vertical is not from the recoil but from you trying to hold the gun stead by pulling it back down. Most people can't draw a perfectly strait line with a pencil what makes you thing you can do it with a gun that just fired a bullet out of it's barrel approaching the speed of sound. This is all mostly for guns that are fired in burst or atuomatic. Single shot is similar but not as random. This game is shooting at realism and recoil is a must, random or otherwise. I would definately rather have recoil overdone than underdone.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:36 am 
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Athenian wrote:
What you guys are calling muzzle climb is the direct effect of recoil. They are one of the same. The reason a gun doesn't go strait back when you fire is because you are holding it against your shoulder (at least I hope). So the only direction is can really go is up. The cause of "random recoil" that isn't 100% vertical is not from the recoil but from you trying to hold the gun stead by pulling it back down. Most people can't draw a perfectly strait line with a pencil what makes you thing you can do it with a gun that just fired a bullet out of it's barrel approaching the speed of sound. This is all mostly for guns that are fired in burst or atuomatic. Single shot is similar but not as random. This game is shooting at realism and recoil is a must, random or otherwise. I would definately rather have recoil overdone than underdone.



Have you read Der's post about his experience shooting the Thompson and an m16? A gun can have very little recoil, yet still have lots of muzzle climb. Take the AK74 for example. Although Im sure it has mild recoil on full auto, the device on the end of the barrel greatly redices muzzle climb, yet does nothing to help recoil.

I agree with you about rather having overdone recoil/muzzle climb, than under done. Theres a fine line between way to much and just a tad to much though..

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:21 pm 
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Quote:
This isn't CS?

Sure, which is why we don't have Ts and CTs, small claustrophobic maps, overly siplistic gameplay, etc.

If CSS did one thing right, it was it's ballastics model. Every gun "felt" perfect.





I don't want an unrealistic game. I'm actually very excited to se things like bullet drop, bullet KE, etc. I just think that having something like Muzzle climb is certain to ruin your game experience, no ifs or buts about it..

I mean, I hated it in DoD when you shoot for 1/5 of a second and you're looking up at the sky..


Funny thing is, I'v NEVER seen guns climbing in ANY video.

Recoil should be fairly consitent : the gun should just jerk backwards, maybe tilting up a bit. The guns should not bounce around all over the place like a punctored ballon. On higher realism settings, the position of the crosshair should also be affected.

Go play Soldner to see what I'm talking about.


Quote:
This game is shooting at realism and recoil is a must, random or otherwise. I would definately rather have recoil overdone than underdone.

How, then, can you call yourself a gamer.

Realism is just fine, until it interferes with your gaming experience.


Let me remind you : enemies are not in the sky....


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:11 pm 
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Depends on the shooter. Realism should effect gameplay. CS:S had a bad model on how they handled guns for automatics they just used a cone of fire. What do you mean by a guns recoil is supposted to feel right?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:24 pm 
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|_}UM{--}G{_|FeAR wrote:
Quote:
This isn't CS?

If CSS did one thing right, it was it's ballastics model. Every gun "felt" perfect.


Never ever again say that CS:S had (has) a good ballistics model. For one, most of the guns don't even properly recoil or climb. Try shooting a MAC 10 like, go ahead. You'll end up shooting yourself in the head because the gun climbs so much without the gun braced against your shoulder with the stock or a silencer. If the AWP was truly in .338 Lapua, it would rocket up at least 2 feet off target.

Valve made CSS user friendly. They nulled most, if not all, of the guns actual recoil and just slapped on some bullet spread.

They also balanced the hell out of the game. They made it so that if you point straight ahead with the AWP, jumped, and fired at a wall directly in front of you, you would hit the ground or sky. How does that work?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:43 pm 
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Quote:
For one, most of the guns don't even properly recoil or climb. Try shooting a MAC 10 like, go ahead. You'll end up shooting yourself in the head because the gun climbs so much without the gun braced against your shoulder with the stock or a silencer. If the AWP was truly in .338 Lapua, it would rocket up at least 2 feet off target.

This is an example where realism and fun factor are mutually exclusive.

Recoil should be a minor consideration. Put simple, too much recoil ruins your game exepreince because then the focus of the game becomes dealing with the recoil rather than outperforming your opponents...

The guns DO climb in CSS, but they have a muzle climb peak, which turned out really well.

I never said CSSs guns were realistic, they just lent themselves to a good gameplay experience.

never forget :
Fun factor>realism.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:15 pm 
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|_}UM{--}G{_|FeAR wrote:
Quote:
For one, most of the guns don't even properly recoil or climb. Try shooting a MAC 10 like, go ahead. You'll end up shooting yourself in the head because the gun climbs so much without the gun braced against your shoulder with the stock or a silencer. If the AWP was truly in .338 Lapua, it would rocket up at least 2 feet off target.

This is an example where realism and fun factor are mutually exclusive.

Recoil should be a minor consideration. Put simple, too much recoil ruins your game exepreince because then the focus of the game becomes dealing with the recoil rather than outperforming your opponents...

The guns DO climb in CSS, but they have a muzle climb peak, which turned out really well.

I never said CSSs guns were realistic, they just lent themselves to a good gameplay experience.

never forget :
Fun factor>realism.
For me realism IS the fun factor. I don't want another bunny hopping omg uber because it uses bigger rounds halo or CS.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:29 pm 
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|_}UM{--}G{_|FeAR wrote:
Quote:
For one, most of the guns don't even properly recoil or climb. Try shooting a MAC 10 like, go ahead. You'll end up shooting yourself in the head because the gun climbs so much without the gun braced against your shoulder with the stock or a silencer. If the AWP was truly in .338 Lapua, it would rocket up at least 2 feet off target.

This is an example where realism and fun factor are mutually exclusive.

Recoil should be a minor consideration. Put simple, too much recoil ruins your game exepreince because then the focus of the game becomes dealing with the recoil rather than outperforming your opponents...
I don't understand how high recoil has any impact on competition with other players. The weapons will act in exactly the same way for everyone.

|_}UM{--}G{_|FeAR wrote:
The guns DO climb in CSS, but they have a muzle climb peak, which turned out really well.

I never said CSSs guns were realistic, they just lent themselves to a good gameplay experience.
You'll have a hard time finding anyone even somewhat inclined towards realistic games to agree that CS offers a good gameplay experience.

|_}UM{--}G{_|FeAR wrote:
never forget :
Fun factor>realism.
For a lot of people realism is part of the fun factor.


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