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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Now, I know that Alliance is supposed to be set from WWI to modern, but I think that to have just 1 flintlock weapon would add a large amount of possible situations. Instead of a platoon of WWI riflemen vs a SEAL squad, it would be even more extreme. A regiment of musketeers vs. 1 man with an M240B and night vision goggles.

If a musket is to be included, then comes up the question of flintlock or percussion caps. Percussion cap muskets (such as used in the civil war) were among the first weapons to have rifling, and had a much lower misfire rate than the smooth bore flintlocks. I just think that some random weapons that are either very old, or very new (in prototype stages), would help spice up the war studio.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:38 pm 
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I'd love some black powder weapons, but if they are going to appear, it'll be after the initial release, maybe in an addon, expansion, or what have you.

Jezail muskets common to the middle east were in use heavily in the First World War and even into modern times with the wars in Afghanistan.

A Brown Bess musket or a Martini-Henry rifle with their huge bayonets would be quite an interesting contrast to all the modern weapons included in the game already.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Laser guided bomb anyone? Anyone remember that famous scene from clear and present danger?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:03 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Laser guided bomb anyone? Anyone remember that famous scene from clear and present danger?

That's not really a gun....

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:35 am 
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DerMann wrote:
I'd love some black powder weapons, but if they are going to appear, it'll be after the initial release, maybe in an addon, expansion, or what have you.

Jezail muskets common to the middle east were in use heavily in the First World War and even into modern times with the wars in Afghanistan.

A Brown Bess musket or a Martini-Henry rifle with their huge bayonets would be quite an interesting contrast to all the modern weapons included in the game already.



There was this game which was released last year, called Darkest of Days, which involved musket fights and time travel. You should check it out. One level took place during the battle of Antietam, and you could use a Springfield musket to repel cavalry or you could bust out a future era machine gun and mow down everyone and everything in your path.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:37 am 
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Huh? wrote:
#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Laser guided bomb anyone? Anyone remember that famous scene from clear and present danger?

That's not really a gun....


yeah guns only >:\ *shakes stick* lol

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:48 am 
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Rumbler07 wrote:
DerMann wrote:
I'd love some black powder weapons, but if they are going to appear, it'll be after the initial release, maybe in an addon, expansion, or what have you.

Jezail muskets common to the middle east were in use heavily in the First World War and even into modern times with the wars in Afghanistan.

A Brown Bess musket or a Martini-Henry rifle with their huge bayonets would be quite an interesting contrast to all the modern weapons included in the game already.



There was this game which was released last year, called Darkest of Days, which involved musket fights and time travel. You should check it out. One level took place during the battle of Antietam, and you could use a Springfield musket to repel cavalry or you could bust out a future era machine gun and mow down everyone and everything in your path.

oh yeah that game....it looked WEIRD as hell. Like it's just strange...im assuming that game has no definition of overkill if you're fucking up confederate civil war soldiers with laser guns.... or blowing apart ancient Roman Legionaries with m16s...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:55 am 
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I've not heard of that game, but I played the hell out of a Half Life mod called the Battle Grounds, and I was heavily involved with a realism (line battling lol) clan for many years. Eventually they went to the Half Life 2 engine, but my clan had died and much of the original team had left. I had a lot of fun both learning how to properly be part of an infantry line and commanding lines of infantry in (simulated) combat.

The History Channel also released a Civil War game (forgot the name, there was an RTS whose name was literally just the reversal of the History Channel game). It was based on the CoD2 engine, I think, and it was quirky but pretty fun. Even in the hardest setting it was goofy because your standard weapon was often one of the early repeating rifles (think the rifle sized colt revolver), and you'd have to go out of your way to pick up Springfield muskets.

I'd loooove me some super realistic black powder firearms, in short :D

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:13 am 
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Since our main focus is the last century of infantry combat, we're planning on only having cartridge-based firearms at first. Once we feel that the WarStudio has a reasonably thorough representation of that, all bets are off though. There are just so many firearms in history, that we had to draw a line in the sand somewhere to keep our insanely large weapon list at least somewhat under control. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:20 pm 
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Even though I don't think my suggestion was every really used in a war how about the Swiss K31?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Ive seen some classic muzzle loaded firearms on youtube, and it looks like accuracy may be an issue. I mean, these weapons didn't have rifled barrels afaik. Plus, you have to put in the powder, the ball (and one other item I believe) after you shoot. It remains to be seen whether this can be translated into a fun game experience.

But then again, im uber biased towards modern weaponry.

Barret REC7
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King of similar in looks to the ar15 platform, but it fires an intermediate cartridge, so it would be nice to have something between the m16 and the ak.. :)

How about airburst rounds? I know the OICW was cancelled, but I remember a couple stationary grenade launchers that use them and there was also something on future weapons called the SWAW whose rounds could go off inside, taking out the whole building.

MK19 grenade launcher
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Type 87 (hand carried automatic grenade launcher!)
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Frag 12 round for the AA-12
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Mortars?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:14 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Ive seen some classic muzzle loaded firearms on youtube, and it looks like accuracy may be an issue. I mean, these weapons didn't have rifled barrels afaik. Plus, you have to put in the powder, the ball (and one other item I believe) after you shoot. It remains to be seen whether this can be translated into a fun game experience.

But then again, im uber biased towards modern weaponry.
Barret REC7
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King of similar in looks to the ar15 platform, but it fires an intermediate cartridge, so it would be nice to have something between the m16 and the ak.. :)

How about airburst rounds? I know the OICW was cancelled, but I remember a couple stationary grenade launchers that use them and there was also something on future weapons called the SWAW whose rounds could go off inside, taking out the whole building.

MK19 grenade launcher
Image

Type 87 (hand carried automatic grenade launcher!)
Image

Frag 12 round for the AA-12
Image


Mortars?

Muskets and what not are horribly inaccurate, but that's what makes it so fun. Playing battleground was hilarious because of the line fights then having to stick solely to your bayonet.

Also the definition of an assault rifle is more or less that they fire an intermediate round. The REC7 fires 5.56 and 6.8 BUT no military would switch to 6.8 because ...we all use 5.56 and it's in such abundance. The 5.56 and 7.62x39 are both intermediate rifle rounds. The 6.8 was just done to be like heyyyy we made something slightly different. Myself I prefer bigger rounds like .308 and 30-06 because I know that after I shoot something center mass it will not be getting back up. Kevlar can only stop so much nothing is bullet proof.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Well, intermediate as in between the small, accurate 5.56 and the large, bulky 7.62. From my understanding, the 6.8 was created to bridge the gap between the two. Aka provide more power than the 5.56 but not the recoil of the 7.62. As you can see, there is a considerable difference in power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Anti-material: .50caliber BMG, 12.7x108mm, .55 Boys
Rifle: .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .303 Enfield
Pistol: 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, 7.63 Mauser

Intermediate cartridges were developed to bridge the gap between the range and power of a rifle and the low recoil and light weight of pistol cartridges.

5.56NATO, 7.62x39, and 6.8SPC are all strictly intermediate rounds. The lengths, widths and weights wary widely, but they all fit the role of an intermediate cartridge. The 5.56NATO cartridge is significantly longer than the 7.62 AK cartridge (45mm vs. 39mm, respectively), yet the 5.56 projectile is less than half the weight in many loadings.

I'd even consider the 7.62NATO to be an intermediate cartridge. It was designed to be an intermediate between the then common .30-06 (full sized rifle and machine gun round) and the .30 carbine cartridge (often used as a weapon for troops whose primary roles weren't directly combat related).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:33 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Well, intermediate as in between the small, accurate 5.56 and the large, bulky 7.62. From my understanding, the 6.8 was created to bridge the gap between the two. Aka provide more power than the 5.56 but not the recoil of the 7.62. As you can see, there is a considerable difference in power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0


7.62 is not a large round, and in-fact the recoil isn't bad at all. The 5.56 is like a .22 when it comes to recoil and the 7.62x39 isn't a whole lot more than that of the m16. I've fired both (owned 2 ak's and an ar) and I have to say that recoil isn't a big factor in either. Also I'd like to point out that the "REC7" is nothing but an Upper attachment on a AR platform.

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REC7 is not an entirely new rifle, instead it is made up of an upper receiver that is attached to a M16/M4 lower receiver and is compatible with many accessories intended for the M16/M4 family. It can also be mated to M16/M4 lower receivers currently in the possession of the US military


So actually this is more of a "mod" if you will for an M16 or M4. Take two pins out change out the upper and get different mags that's it. Or actually you could keep the same and just use the 5.56 version.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Id like to post this 2009 report made by an professor of advanced military studies for the army.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD ... tTRDoc.pdf
i think most of the article is relevant to the discussion above

It's an Excellent read, is very insightful and also talks alot about potential replacements for the 5.56nato (including the 6.8 family). Very very well put together and clearly from an expert.



Btw that type 87 grenade launcher is just nasty looking! Half a billion Chinese armed with those? No thank you lol

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:12 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Ive seen some classic muzzle loaded firearms on youtube, and it looks like accuracy may be an issue. I mean, these weapons didn't have rifled barrels afaik. Plus, you have to put in the powder, the ball (and one other item I believe) after you shoot. It remains to be seen whether this can be translated into a fun game experience.

But then again, im uber biased towards modern weaponry.

Barret REC7
Image
King of similar in looks to the ar15 platform, but it fires an intermediate cartridge, so it would be nice to have something between the m16 and the ak.. :)

How about airburst rounds? I know the OICW was cancelled, but I remember a couple stationary grenade launchers that use them and there was also something on future weapons called the SWAW whose rounds could go off inside, taking out the whole building.

MK19 grenade launcher
Image

Type 87 (hand carried automatic grenade launcher!)
Image

Frag 12 round for the AA-12
Image


Mortars?

if you want airburst, check out the ROK's K11. South Korea is the first military to my knowledge to implement air burst rounds as a standard weapon for squads. Image

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Spiffinz wrote:
Id like to post this 2009 report made by an professor of advanced military studies for the army.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD ... tTRDoc.pdf
i think most of the article is relevant to the discussion above

It's an Excellent read, is very insightful and also talks alot about potential replacements for the 5.56nato (including the 6.8 family). Very very well put together and clearly from an expert.

Very interesting read. Thanks Spiffinz!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:51 pm 
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The article mentioned lethality to out to 500 meters... I immediately thought of the m14? Could shoot all the way out to 800 yards. I believe the 7.62x51 NATO is the future.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:03 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
The article mentioned lethality to out to 500 meters... I immediately thought of the m14? Could shoot all the way out to 800 yards. I believe the 7.62x51 NATO is the future.


Huh? 7.62x51 or .308 is not the future. It's been used for years. Since Vietnam..

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