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 Post subject: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:52 pm 
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I find that sniping is one of those big areas in today's games that usually falls short. Im curious, will alliance model each sniper system fully, down to things like penetration capability and recoil? How about the different specialty rounds. Will they be represented authentically? Something I really was hoping to see was the .50 raufoss round which has actually taken out not one, but several targets behind a thick wall

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Every single aspect of modern firearms will be represented. That's a lofty claim, but it's what we're working on this very minute.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:11 pm 
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I'm speaking from strictly a PvP MP point of view

Personally I would rather "snipers" not exist, short of sniper specific games. They are just not needed, are counter productive to teamwork and add very little to a game that is based on objectives rather than TDM.

Very few games (I can only think of the ArmA series) have the scale in which a "sniper" is somewhat beneficial. Firefights in video games are almost never made to happen at those distances for various reasons. Mostly because of performance issues and the "fun" factor. Just my $.02, I think they take away more gameplay than add to it. I've never played a game where the inclusion of the "sniper" made the game better.


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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Athenian wrote:
I'm speaking from strictly a PvP MP point of view

Personally I would rather "snipers" not exist, short of sniper specific games. They are just not needed, are counter productive to teamwork and add very little to a game that is based on objectives rather than TDM.

Very few games (I can only think of the ArmA series) have the scale in which a "sniper" is somewhat beneficial. Firefights in video games are almost never made to happen at those distances for various reasons. Mostly because of performance issues and the "fun" factor. Just my $.02, I think they take away more gameplay than add to it. I've never played a game where the inclusion of the "sniper" made the game better.


I understand and agree with you to a point. But I've played unknown amount of FPS's and I have to say it's an added challenge when you're facing a sniper. Regardless if it's in a building or out in the open. Someone using a "sniper" rifle of some sort really just add's more of a challenge. They are usually always the rouge type players that go out on their own and frag kids. I like a challenge. Back when DODS (day of defeat:source) was getting bigger as far as player base I played in CAL for 9 seasons mainly main and invite. Facing a good sniper on a smaller map added more of a challenge and sometimes it was annoying, but that challenge is what kept me coming back for more. A challenging game is what keeps people playing. No challenge = no fun, but also too much of a challenge isn't fun either lol. But you get the gist of what I'm saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Keep in mind as well, that in most games sniping is close to being a point and click type of endeavor. There is a lot that goes into making an accurate, long-range shot on the battlefield, all of which we plan on capturing. The server's realism setting will obviously influence this, so if you're not quite that much of a sim nut you don't have to worry.

Also, as a server option (default to on), we'd limit the number of snipers on each side to more closely approximate real-world unit breakdowns.

Finally, our weapons will be as accurate as they are in real life. This implies that if you had an AR with a red dot sight and a sniper had the same or a similar AR but scoped, both of your shots would be as accurate as the other. Most games make non-scoped rifles have horrible MOA accuracy for the sake of balance, which helps tip the balance even further towards snipers. No magical MOA accuracy boost to scoped weapons will be applied in Alliance, only whatever it should be in real life.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:30 pm 
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AllianceEric wrote:
Keep in mind as well, that in most games sniping is close to being a point and click type of endeavor. There is a lot that goes into making an accurate, long-range shot on the battlefield, all of which we plan on capturing. The server's realism setting will obviously influence this, so if you're not quite that much of a sim nut you don't have to worry.

Also, as a server option (default to on), we'd limit the number of snipers on each side to more closely approximate real-world unit breakdowns.

Finally, our weapons will be as accurate as they are in real life. This implies that if you had an AR with a red dot sight and a sniper had the same or a similar AR but scoped, both of your shots would be as accurate as the other. Most games make non-scoped rifles have horrible MOA accuracy for the sake of balance, which helps tip the balance even further towards snipers. No magical MOA accuracy boost to scoped weapons will be applied in Alliance, only whatever it should be in real life.

Right. One of our oft-repeated catechisms is...

"We absolutely, positively do NOT balance guns. Their precise simulation is sacred to us. The balancing happens on the server level."

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:14 pm 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
AllianceEric wrote:
Keep in mind as well, that in most games sniping is close to being a point and click type of endeavor. There is a lot that goes into making an accurate, long-range shot on the battlefield, all of which we plan on capturing. The server's realism setting will obviously influence this, so if you're not quite that much of a sim nut you don't have to worry.

Also, as a server option (default to on), we'd limit the number of snipers on each side to more closely approximate real-world unit breakdowns.

Finally, our weapons will be as accurate as they are in real life. This implies that if you had an AR with a red dot sight and a sniper had the same or a similar AR but scoped, both of your shots would be as accurate as the other. Most games make non-scoped rifles have horrible MOA accuracy for the sake of balance, which helps tip the balance even further towards snipers. No magical MOA accuracy boost to scoped weapons will be applied in Alliance, only whatever it should be in real life.

Right. One of our oft-repeated catechisms is...

"We absolutely, positively do NOT balance guns. Their precise simulation is sacred to us. The balancing happens on the server level."

And this is exactly why I fell in love with this game in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Man I can't wait to show you what's cooking in the alpha. You guys are gonna love this...

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:50 pm 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
Man I can't wait to show you what's cooking in the alpha. You guys are gonna love this...

Don't tease!

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:12 am 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
AllianceEric wrote:
One of our oft-repeated catechisms is...

"We absolutely, positively do NOT balance guns. Their precise simulation is sacred to us. The balancing happens on the server level."



That is all I need to hear. I've always said, when people bring up weapon "balance", is that if weapons in games were modeled such that their general characteristics and stats are portrayed accurately, they will balance themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:17 am 
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same here. I was never a fan of the Call of Duty system where some weapons are unrealistically portrayed in order to make them more or less powerful. Glad you guys are sticking to your ethics!

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:57 pm 
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I actually think that snipers in most games are useless. Not many games manage to even to capturing the sense of scale on a modern battlefield. At those tiny ranges, it makes very little difference whether you use an AR or a dedicated sniper weapon. Or atleast it shouldn't but like you guys pointed out, things are inflated to add some artificial balance. This is basically the point at which it becomes harder to believe what is happening on my screen. Shotguns are another great example. CoD games dumb them down so they are useless if you are trying to hit anything further away than 10 feet. Most fps games simply can't adaquently show the differences among different weapons because the scale of things doesn't do justice to any of the weapons.

Im very happy that Alliance will be staying true to the real thing. Finally rifles will feel like rifles.

Waait.. so does that mean that if there are a couple enemies lined up, we can take em out with one shot?

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Man I can't wait to show you what's cooking in the alpha. You guys are gonna love this...

Can we expect any screenies in the near-ish future? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:09 pm 
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I usually never use sniper classes or sniper weapons in FPSs. First and foremost, I despise the class for the reasons Athenian stated in his earlier post. It encourages players to discard teamplay instead to go off and camp uselessly by themselves - only moving forward when other players have progressed and they can no longer get easy kills.

But if it's implemented in an ultra-realistic manner, I do believe that players will be discouraged from automatically playing as a sniper role for ease of use. Sniping is not an easy task in real combat, and I'm glad that this game will finally break that common misconception.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:47 pm 
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I particularly dislike that you can't pick up a scoped rifle in a game (if you've shot one in real life) and know exactly what's going to happen. I always have to go through the BS trial and error checklist of: are they doing laser raycasts or actually shooting a projectile, does the projectile fly at a real velocity, does gravity affect it, is the scope actually zeroed at a range or is it just aligned with the bore axis, etc. And that's just the really simple stuff...

Basically, I hate having to derive in what ways it is broken and what I need to change (in how I fire the weapon) to compensate. Don't get me started on what happens when you actually hit somebody.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:51 pm 
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AllianceEric wrote:
I particularly dislike that you can't pick up a scoped rifle in a game (if you've shot one in real life) and know exactly what's going to happen. I always have to go through the BS trial and error checklist of: are they doing laser raycasts or actually shooting a projectile, does the projectile fly at a real velocity, does gravity affect it, is the scope actually zeroed at a range or is it just aligned with the bore axis, etc. And that's just the really simple stuff...

Basically, I hate having to derive in what ways it is broken and what I need to change (in how I fire the weapon) to compensate. Don't get me started on what happens when you actually hit somebody.

I agree. I find myself playing various fps's and get rather angry when I shoot someone with a large caliber and they just keep running like I threw a ball at them or something. Realism isn't in the heads of the big name games now a days.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:51 am 
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One thing that I personally believe is that the effects of ballistics will prevent most casual players from camping it up and attempting to snipe with anything but designated rifles.

There is an example that will forever burn in my mind. I was playing CoD: MW on the map that was originally Brecourt in the first CoD (the one with the trenches in the middle, a farm on the outskirts, and pretty much open ground everywhere else). I was on one extreme corner of the map, rounding a hill near the bottom trench, armed with a scoped FAL. I spot someone roughly halfway up the map, at least a good 200-300 yds. Scope in, hit him once in the head, only to have him, armed with a UMP with an holographic sight, managed to dump enough rounds into me before I could even get a second shot off.

While most people understand that shooting long distances with SMGs or even ARs is futile, there are people who will still exploit any facet of a game. I'm quite fond of BAR sniping in DoD myself :D

But I believe Alliance will be the first game that will truly force people to use (most) firearms for their intended purpose. No more hitting people with pistol cartridges at ranges exceeding 100yds. And for that matter, using one of the few automatic rifles (FALs, FG42s, early M14s?) in fully automatic will be almost unusable (on the higher realism settings, or so I imagine).

Don't quite remember where i was going with this. Probably need to go to sleep.

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:50 pm 
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DerMann wrote:
One thing that I personally believe is that the effects of ballistics will prevent most casual players from camping it up and attempting to snipe with anything but designated rifles.

But I believe Alliance will be the first game that will truly force people to use (most) firearms for their intended purpose. No more hitting people with pistol cartridges at ranges exceeding 100yds. And for that matter, using one of the few automatic rifles (FALs, FG42s, early M14s?) in fully automatic will be almost unusable (on the higher realism settings, or so I imagine).


Absolutely. The absence of any kind of wind alone in shooters these days instantly makes sniping childs play compared to the real world. Granted it would be quite challenging to put a real world wind system in the game because of how many variables would be involved. How often does it change direction and speed? How would it affect All guns? Would it detract from the fun factor?

In my humble opinion I think Alliance should definitely focus on portraying not only adjustments for distance (obviously already well done lol) but also time-to-target. Bad Company 2 requires snipers to take these things into account, but its not nearly fine tuned enough and the scope mil-dots and such are only 'functional' in the most basic sense.


I look forward to seeing how the players choise of weapons forces them to make sacrifices in some areas (weight, length) for gains in others (firepower, range, etc.). It should be fascinating to watch the guns 'balance themselves' per sey but to be honest im hoping a situation wont occur like in Firearms where the Famas was banned from most servers (for being too damn powerful and fast shooting and noob lol). No doubt with enough hands on testing those potentialities will be eliminated :)

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:41 pm 
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For the love of all that is good please make it so when you fire a shot from a high power rifle (.30 cal and above, especially .50BMG) that it kicks you out of seeing through the scope and you have to aim again. This would be way more realisctic and also force the player to slow down his shots and maybe..I don't know...aim once and awhile.


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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Recoil is generated accurately based on pretty well understood physics equations. The larger factors in the equation are the bullet mass, velocity, and weapon mass. Your gun will then kick and torque based on the actual movement imparted on the weapon from these factors. There will also be a natural progression in how much your point of aim is impacted for subsequent shots as the impulse is greater and greater, rather than arbitrary point past which you all shots are harder to get back on target from. The end result should please you greatly. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Snipers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:56 am 
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AllianceEric wrote:
Recoil is generated accurately based on pretty well understood physics equations. The larger factors in the equation are the bullet mass, velocity, and weapon mass. Your gun will then kick and torque based on the actual movement imparted on the weapon from these factors. There will also be a natural progression in how much your point of aim is impacted for subsequent shots as the impulse is greater and greater, rather than arbitrary point past which you all shots are harder to get back on target from. The end result should please you greatly. :)


Shouldn't it be bullet mass, acceleration and weapon mass? I could be wrong though, civil engineers like to keep things static, other wise we get nervous. :oops:

In reality "recoil" is a byproduct of the person shooting the gun. "Recoil" is linear (i.e. 180 degrees) to the projectile, but the shooter, in an attempt to minimize/stop the gun "kick" causes actual recoil (barrel elevates). The barrel elevating is part of the energy "absorption", the other being the shooter himself/herself. You could give the same gun with the same ammo to 100 people and you would get 100 different recoil "patterns". Which is what makes it so hard to be modeled in a video game and why 99.9% of video games opt for a random "cone of fire" that is influenced by only a few factors.


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