Alliance: The Silent War

Sox, if I were a Roman, I'd sacrifice a lamb to you.

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Head of Zombie Suit Manufacturing, Supplying Guns to the Mentally Stable, Lead Researcher for Weapons, Grand Requisitioner, and Master Keeper of the NZG Armoury.
Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not.

I'm partial to sacrificial llamas.

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Alliance Developer, Sox34's not-so-secret identity, & NZG Central Command
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur." — Unknown Philosopher

Sorry, but Llamas were never found by the ancient Romans. If I could I would, but Romans were generally unable to go to South America and find all those lucious llamas for sacrificing to Iupiter.

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Head of Zombie Suit Manufacturing, Supplying Guns to the Mentally Stable, Lead Researcher for Weapons, Grand Requisitioner, and Master Keeper of the NZG Armoury.
Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not.

Please no "I have a lvl III-A vest on so I can magicaly withstand .223 and other rifle rounds" crap. One COM hit from a rifle round, even with soft (below III) armor should pretty much end the game.

Damn right it should.

Rifle round penetration will depend on if you have metal or ceramic plate inserts in your vest.

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Alliance Developer, Sox34's not-so-secret identity, & NZG Central Command
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur." — Unknown Philosopher

Huzzah innovation! I assume that there will be a trade off for protection and manuverability

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"Dream a little bit
This is the kush to your lighter"
The NZG Specialist, Stick Wielder, Shotgun Extraordinaire

You assume correctly.

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Alliance Developer, Sox34's not-so-secret identity, & NZG Central Command
"Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur." — Unknown Philosopher

Maybe. Maybe not. This is one of my pet subjects, so prepare for a deluge.

There is only one place you can shoot that will cause a 100% stop every time and that is the central nervous system. Brain and heart shots almost always put people down(there are the odd cases where people survive them). Lung shots not so much. A non-fragmenting FMJ round that doesn't yaw will punch a clean hole through the lung. This would be like the wounds from round nosed FMJ rounds described by surgeons like Abbott, Kocher, Markins, Brunner, and LaGarde, which were often survivable in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Unless your lung collapses under tension, you are physiologically capable of fighting until you bleed to death. If medical attention is available, that could be hours off.

The great majority(if not all) of bullets will yaw in enough of a solid medium, coming to rest base first. A round nose bullet can go through the length of several torsos before doing so. A spitzer(pointed) style bullet is different. Most of its mass is to the rear. They yaw much faster, which means you could have a .30 by .75 inch wound instead of a .30 by .30. This can also increase the size of the temporary cavity enough to cause detached muscles, ripped flesh, "exploding" bladders, etc. Such a wound through the lungs is likely to cause a tension Pneumothorax(fancy shmancy term for a collapsed lung), which will probably mean your death in a few minutes.

But bullets yaw inconsistently. A bullet may yaw halfway through a torso on one shot and not at all on another. Maybe it causes a wound that will bleed you out in a few hours, maybe you expire in a few minutes. Maybe it collapses your lung, maybe it doesn't.

If I were in charge(a scary thought), I would make this entirely too complex. Have seperate hit boxes for the lungs and heart(if possible). Heart shot means death. A lung shot gives you a 60 percent chance of a clean wound, which could be survivable. The other 40 percent of the time, your lung collapses and you randomly expire sometime within 5 minutes. You become progressively weaker due to oxygen starvation as your end approaches. Now, I say "could survive" on the clean shots because you begin bleeding immediately. You lose a random amount of blood every 5-10 seconds. You would have a pool of blood to represent the 5~ liters in your average adult. This would take the place of "health." Any time you bleed or are hit between 15 and 40 percent blood loss, you could keel over. You've gone into shock, blood pressure is too low to supply all the vitals, etc. You may not be dead but you will be soon. Any loss exceeding 40 percent causes immediate collapse.

This is why I could never get a job in video games, never mind my lack of applicable skills. They'd fire me after the 5th incredibly complex idea that doesn't really add anything to the game.

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Hence "pretty much." Sure you could, it's happened plenty of times. People have been hit COM with .50BMG and lived to tell the tale. But for every one guy that lives to tell the tail, are ten thousand that didn’t.

Of course we're talking rifle rounds, not pistol rounds here. There is a lethality difference by almost orders of magnitude. With pistols CNS is critical because they lack the ability to cause hydrostatic shock, they only create temporary stretch cavities. A pistols permanent wound cavity is only as large as the bullet itself. Where as a rifle round causes huge permanent wound cavities. With a rifle you can score a hit on the victims right chest, yet still shred the heart to pieces. That’s why I said, pretty much any COM hit with a rifle round and the game will be over. With a pistol round, that simply doesn’t happen.

People that survive being shot are almost always people hit with a pistol round.

Of course.



It's very name of this theory is incorrect. Hydrostatics is the study of STATIC fluid, which flesh being shot is not. The original idea behind it(though people use it to mean many different things) dealt with a damage causing pressure wave that occured when a round struck the human body.

No proof exists for any such mechanism, though a fellow on thehighroad.org named Michael Courtney claims to be part of the "The Ballistic Testing Group," which will(he claims) release a study proving that microscopic damage can be caused to blood vessels in various far-flung parts of the body by hollowpoints. Time will tell if he is telling the truth, though it has already been a year since he first made these claims.



Smaller, actually. A bullet will not crush 100% of its diameter in flesh.
Sphere, .355
Spitzer, .40
90 degree tip Cone, .52
Roundnose, .57
Semi-wadcutter, .55
Truncated cone, .55
Expanded hollowpoint, .68
Full wadcutter, .83

Multiply the diameter by the appropriate number. This is per "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma" - Duncan MacPherson.



A fast moving hollowpoint or fragmenting round can do so. A FMJ round that doesn't fragment performs much the same as a pistol round, save for yawing. Stockton Schoolyard, 1989. A man shoots 34 children and 1 teacher with an AK-47 style rifle. 5 children die, the teacher and remaining 29 students survive. On all 5 of the dead children, no damage to organs not hit by the bullet was detected*. One child, for example, was shot in the stomach. "STOMACH: There is a perforating wound of the antrum due to passage of the bullet. The stomach is otherwise normal. There is no spillage of gastric contents." He died because he had been shot in the liver.

* http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardw ... eport2.txt

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Dont some FMJ bullets tumble through you like a buzzsaw?


I think .303 british does than, and I'm sure other do too.

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"Dream a little bit
This is the kush to your lighter"
The NZG Specialist, Stick Wielder, Shotgun Extraordinaire

Probably medium.

IMO, even on lowest realism, the game shouldn't be like C&C : Renegade...

hey don't be bashing Renegade it's a great game and it forces you to work as a team and give you something to go for destroying your enemys base

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Sox's assistant and the number one grunt of the NZG
don't mess with a nation that needs medication

Yeah, but it was just about the mot unrealistic game you could concieve, aside from shooting purple pigeons out of your ass in order to kill idiosyncratic monkies..

was never ment to be realistic it was ment to go along the lines of the C&C Universe

and you still shouldn't pick on ren if your gonna talk about unrelistic go after Unreal or Quake

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Sox's assistant and the number one grunt of the NZG
don't mess with a nation that needs medication

FULL REALISM, EVEN IF ITS UNPLAYABLE. health is up to debate but you should have full realistic ballistics and no one will have any objection. i think there should be the option of one hit kill kind of thing though so when ur in the campaign if u get hit you react like a real person. thats what ppl will want to turn on and off

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I'm a violin virtuoso, biatch.

All spitzer(pointed) bullets tumble given enough time. But this is an erratic behavior. It doesn't usually happen on an uncomplicated thigh wound. Somes on a torso wound, sometimes not.

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My realism setting will be VERY high. I am tired of 500 yard point and click shots with no skill involved. Like someone else mentioned you can fill up a room with arcade shooters with no problem. I want realism to the point of if I am a sniper I want a gilly suit, I want to be able to paint a customizable pattern on my rifle to blend in better to the surroundings ( I want to be invisible as a "real" sniper is till they shoot). I want anti reflective coating for the scope.....will there be reflections on metal/glass/reflective objects that we can see as players? Will bots see or use this to their advantage? I have seen this game compared as the GT4 of shooters...well if so you need all the "extras" you can to get the complete feel. Nothing is worse than leaving out "simple" features then waiting 6 months after release for a mod to do it.

Probably medium. I don't like being able to take half a billion hits (renegade) but I'm also not a big fan of the rainbow six "one hit and you're dead system."

Oh wait, this might affect MP..