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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Will there be a minamum weight for loadouts? The reason im asking is that I hope Alliance doesn't have any of that "guy sprinting around with a knife" stuff that's sadly become common place these days. I suppose this wouldn't work too well in larger spaces as you would get picked off quickly, but I understand that alliance will have both large and small maps.

Since it's weight based (as opposed to slot based), will we be able to go into combat with something like two smgs? I've always to do that, but most games limit you to one of each category.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Someone with ONLY a knife will be able to sprint longer and faster than someone with a SAW, however they wont have magic 1 hit kills that come into play from an insanely large radius. As such, they will usually just arrive at their place of death a little faster.

Yes, Switching weapons while running will not have an impact (so no swap to knife to run, then back to gun to shoot like in CS). 2 SMG's would be doable (though at that point, wouldn't you prefer the extra flexibility of a different class?)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:45 pm 
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What about no scoping? Will it be different than in most games?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:11 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
What about no scoping? Will it be different than in most games?

Yes. First we're actually modeling where your barrel is pointed at at all times (offsetting and angling it about as you try to hold it steady and breathe, let alone move about). As such it isn't like other games where the weapon is always centered on screen and the cone widens (but stays centered) as you fire, move, or shoot from the hip.

More importantly, we've already mentioned that a bullet is a bullet in Alliance. You no scope in other games because the designers have made a sniper rifle's bullet "Magically" more powerful than the same bullet from an assault rifle (which is a big incentive). If you try to no scope a bolt rifle against any run of the mill assault rifle in Alliance, you will be turned into swiss cheese the majority of the time. Assuming the same muzzle velocity, the only difference would be the assault rifle's massively higher rate of fire. Guess who'll usually win in that case.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Heh, for some reason I was under the impression that bullets from a sniper rifle were actually packed considerably muzzle energy then a regular rifle.

BTW, here is an example a real life no scope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDovqz1y5ss

After all those shots, he still didn't hit both targets. But he was stationary wasn't he. Now let's add in all the jumping and running around people do with sniper rifles in most games. Somehow I don't see those shots being too accurate. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Nope Neo, this is what separates sniper rifles from regular issue or "field grade" rifles-

1. Precision. This is the no-brainer. The tolerances are generally much tighter or, at the very least, better field grade rifles are selected for their superior accuracy. The rifles are obviously intended for more precise work, so they are either selected or custom built for this purpose.

2. Optical matching. In a "sniper rifle system", the optic used is matched to the ballistic profile of the round intended to be fired out of it. Have a look at these turrets:

http://webyshops.com/ns/images/Truglo/T ... T-Pic1.jpg

Those are known as ballistic drop compensator (BDC) turrets. They allow the operator to quickly turn the elevation to a certain distance (300y, 400y, etc.), and the round will likely fall close to the intended point of impact for that range. This may also extend to the reticle itself in the scope. This is all possible because the rifle is intended to fire a very specific, usually match-grade round, and everything is machined and calibrated to work together. With a field grade rifle firing any ammunition lying around, you can't always rely on this consistency.

3. Ammo. This ties into everything above. The ammo fired out of sniper rifles is usually of a higher quality and is more consistently produced than general issue or field grade ammunition. This results in more repeatable and thus predictable shot placement.

HOWEVER

None of this affects the kinetic energy or "lethality" of the round once in flight. It's usually not any higher muzzle velocity than another round of the same caliber. It might be slightly heavier, but generally no more lethal. If anything, it has to use a very clean ballistic shape (usually a fully jacketed boat tail) to fly as consistently and smoothly as possible, and this type of shape isn't usually as lethal as something that's built to expand or deform on impact. (This isn't taking into account very specialized rounds like the Raufoss [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211])

The best way to think about the whole thing is like explosives. Normal rifles are like a kiloton of dynamite going off, sniper rifles are like a kiloton of C4. One is a large, almost uncontrolled explosion, the other is more controlled and directed.

Both fire similar rounds out of similar-length barrels, thus resulting in the same muzzle velocity and kinetic energy. The difference is the normal rifle's round will be accurate to within, say, 5" at 100 yards, the sniper rifle's to 1".

Make sense?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:00 am 
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Hmm, interesting stuff. Many sniper rifles are usually chambered for bigger rounds though if im remembering things correctly. For example, you have the Barret M1A2 with it's massive 50 BMG round. From what I've seen, the upper limit on normal rifles is around 7.62x51. Older rifles had some bigger rounds like the .30 06 but nothing that came close to the 50 cal. I've also seem some round types for sniper rifles like SLAP and API that I don't hear about being used with normal rifles. Rifles like the m4 usually use ball I think.

EDIT : the stuff about optics definitely has me drooling. I think it will be really cool to have some sort of indepth sniper training when you learn how to adjust the optics, etc. Hopefully, the game will rely on context (so the same button can be used for many things) as opposed to having to memorize many controls. For example, the fire button could be used to adjust one of the knobs on the scope when you are looking down it instead of having to assign a completely new button fore it. Something like that.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:23 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Hmm, interesting stuff. Many sniper rifles are usually chambered for bigger rounds though if im remembering things correctly. For example, you have the Barret M1A2 with it's massive 50 BMG round. From what I've seen, the upper limit on normal rifles is around 7.62x51. Older rifles had some bigger rounds like the .30 06 but nothing that came close to the 50 cal. I've also seem some round types for sniper rifles like SLAP and API that I don't hear about being used with normal rifles. Rifles like the m4 usually use ball I think.



*face-palm*

Movies are not a good source at all to learn anything about firearms or ballistics.


Big rifles like the ".50cal" have been used since world war 2 mainly as anti-tank weapons, but regardless "snipers" do not use a .50cal unless it's a extreme distance situation. WWI Kar98, Lee Enfield, and the 1903 Springfield were used as sniper rifles (8mm, .303, and 30-06). Mosin Nagant (7.62x54r) WWII No real difference from WWI to WWII in the "sniper rifles" that they used, and the same goes with the Korean War, Vietnam; Winchester Model 70, M40, M21, and Remington 700. None used a .50, because it was not needed. You don't seem to understand that "snipers" from the past and even in today's military do not use the .50cal that often. They are big, heavy, and very loud which makes it very difficult to move around in terrain like Afghanistan.


Before the introduction of the standard 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge in the 1950s, standard military cartridges were the .30-06 Springfield or 7.62x63mm (United States), .303 British (7.7x56mmR) (United Kingdom) and 7.92x57mm (8mm Mauser) (Germany). The .30-06 Springfield continued in service with U.S. Marine Corps snipers during the Vietnam War in the 1970s, well after general adoption of the 7.62x51mm. At the present time, in both the Western world and within NATO, 7.62x51mm is currently the primary cartridge of choice for military and police sniper rifles.
Worldwide, the trend is similar. The preferred sniper cartridge in Russia is another .30 calibre military cartridge, the 7.62 x 54 mm R, which has similar performance to the 7.62x51mm. This cartridge was introduced in 1891, and both Russian sniper rifles of the modern era, the Mosin-Nagant and the Dragunov sniper rifle, are chambered for it.
Certain commercial cartridges designed with only performance in mind, without the logistical constraints of most armies, have also gained popularity in the 1990s. These include the 7 mm Remington Magnum (7.2x64mm), .300 Winchester Magnum (7.8/7.62x67mm), and the .338 Lapua Magnum (8.6x70mm). These cartridges offer better ballistic performance and greater effective range than the 7.62x51mm. Though they are not as powerful as .50 calibre cartridges they are not as heavy as rifles chambered for .50 calibre ammunition, and are significantly more powerful than rifles chambered for 7.62x51mm.

Snipers may also employ anti-materiel rifles in sniping roles against targets such as vehicles, equipment and structures, or for the long-range destruction of explosive devices; these rifles may also be used against personnel.
Anti-materiel rifles tend to be semi-automatic and of a larger calibre than anti-personnel rifles, using cartridges such as the .50 BMG, 12.7x108mm Russian or even 14.5x114mm Russian and 20mm. These large cartridges are required to be able to fire projectiles containing payloads such as explosives, armour piercing cores, incendiaries or combinations of these, such as the Raufoss Mk211 projectile. Due to the considerable size and weight of anti-materiel rifles, 2- or 3-man sniper teams become necessary.

And again...*face-palm*

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:36 pm 
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One other thing to keep in mind, which probably bears repeating since games have brainwashed people into thinking sniper rifles are somehow "deadlier" than their semi-auto counterparts...

If a decently-sized rifle round hits you, you are toast, period. If it's from an AK, a crew-served machine gun, an M14, etc. etc. etc., you are in for a world of hurt and quite likely a body bag. These rounds are generally pushed out at the maximum possible pressure that their cartridge and the weapon's chamber will permit. A round is propelled by the burning of powder in the case. This burn and the resultant pressure are maximized for what the chamber and cartridge can safely handle. When you get rounds that are too "hot", the firearm can explode, the casing can split, all sorts of nasty things can happen. So you're limited by thermodynamics in how fast you can shoot a given sized bullet. (Stability once in flight also comes into play, but we'll ignore that for now). Sniper rifles are usually no more capable of withstanding high pressures than battle rifles.

All this means that, basically, a bullet is a bullet, and a 7.62x51mm from almost any firearm chambered for it will be equally lethal at any given range. I know you didn't mention this in your last post, Neo, and it seems like you got it, but as said it bears repeating for anyone else stumbling onto this thread who may be a potential future Alliance player ;)

There *are* cases of larger calibers being employed specifically for sniping where they otherwise would not be used in a small arm, namely the .50 BMG and .338 Lapua, but these weapon systems are very large, cumbersome, and relatively rare on the battlefield. They aren't really run and gun type weapons by any stretch. If you're firing these monsters, odds are you're at almost the man-count required to fire their machine-gun counterparts anyway.

Moral of the story? Most long distance shooting/sniping is done with standard caliber ammunition with no more lethality than that fired from a normal soldier's rifle. The difference is that the likelihood of a hit, when you factor in the superior ammo, matched optics, and precision components of the gun, goes up considerably. And *there* is your increased lethality!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:57 am 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
One other thing to keep in mind, which probably bears repeating since games have brainwashed people into thinking sniper rifles are somehow "deadlier" than their semi-auto counterparts...

If a decently-sized rifle round hits you, you are toast, period. If it's from an AK, a crew-served machine gun, an M14, etc. etc. etc., you are in for a world of hurt and quite likely a body bag. These rounds are generally pushed out at the maximum possible pressure that their cartridge and the weapon's chamber will permit. A round is propelled by the burning of powder in the case. This burn and the resultant pressure are maximized for what the chamber and cartridge can safely handle. When you get rounds that are too "hot", the firearm can explode, the casing can split, all sorts of nasty things can happen. So you're limited by thermodynamics in how fast you can shoot a given sized bullet. (Stability once in flight also comes into play, but we'll ignore that for now). Sniper rifles are usually no more capable of withstanding high pressures than battle rifles.

All this means that, basically, a bullet is a bullet, and a 7.62x51mm from almost any firearm chambered for it will be equally lethal at any given range. I know you didn't mention this in your last post, Neo, and it seems like you got it, but as said it bears repeating for anyone else stumbling onto this thread who may be a potential future Alliance player ;)

There *are* cases of larger calibers being employed specifically for sniping where they otherwise would not be used in a small arm, namely the .50 BMG and .338 Lapua, but these weapon systems are very large, cumbersome, and relatively rare on the battlefield. They aren't really run and gun type weapons by any stretch. If you're firing these monsters, odds are you're at almost the man-count required to fire their machine-gun counterparts anyway.

Moral of the story? Most long distance shooting/sniping is done with standard caliber ammunition with no more lethality than that fired from a normal soldier's rifle. The difference is that the likelihood of a hit, when you factor in the superior ammo, matched optics, and precision components of the gun, goes up considerably. And *there* is your increased lethality!



but but but ... the .50 BMG was originally made for the Browning Machine Gun :mrgreen: . Although the rest of what you said is dead on, the difference between match and non match ammo is how it is made and the tolerances it is made to*. Although in some cases match tips are heavier as this means extra stability/accuracy at range. Still if its a 147 grain 7.62x51 or a 180 grain that hits you, you aren't exactly saying "whew am I ever fucking glad that wasn't a 180 grain match bullet because then I would be dead..."


Just to clarrify for non gunnuts by tolerances I mean the exact # of grains of powder, or the exact seat depth of the tip into the case, or for that matter how consistent the tips are in weight. All of these play a large factor in contributing to consistency shot to shot.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:28 am 
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But that's exactly what I'm saying here: "Moral of the story? Most long distance shooting/sniping is done with standard caliber ammunition with no more lethality than that fired from a normal soldier's rifle. The difference is that the likelihood of a hit, when you factor in the superior ammo, matched optics, and precision components of the gun, goes up considerably. And *there* is your increased lethality!"

Sniper rifles are more deadly because of the likelihood of a hit, plain and simple. And that comes from all of the component parts doing their job better and more consistently.

Or...

All bullets done hurt! :)

Something could be said for different weights, but that difference is, like you pointed out, usually pretty negligible at the terminal end. What it *does* influence is whether or not the terminal end is the thing you're actually aiming at! (Heavier bullets will not be as affected by wind).

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:15 am 
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Well the main point of my post was to uselessly nitpick that .50 BMG was not originally made for a rifle but a MG. After that I just got about to agreeing with the rest of your post without directly applying lips to asses... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:10 pm 
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I suppose you might have a longer barrel on the sniper / marksman weapon but unless you're looking at like... a 10" / 14.5" infantry carbine and then a marksman weapon firing the same round (e.g. current US arsenal) with a 16"/20" right next to it it's not a good comparison.

There's two things giving this impression I think I think:
1) As I might have said here most "realism" FPS games have pretty small maps. They also insist on putting sniper rifles and pistols in and then trying to make those weapons as useful as assault rifles. Therefore the assault rifles don't do enough damage and have enough accuracy so people think of them as weak.

If you don't do this stuff people really gravitate towards assault rifles for most maps because the ranges involved make them the best all rounder. They might slap on a scope for slightly bigger maps or bring a shorter rifle for not getting stuck in doors on smaller maps but mostly it's all about the assault rifles.

2) Infantry doctrines in the west are now tending towards much shorter ranged weapons (as above) and you are getting problems with the M4A1 platform not having enough reach on mountainsides for example so that is emphasised. This varies by time and place.

Back when the sniper rifle fired the same basic round as the standard infantry rifle this probably wasn't such a thing.

If you look at a lot of these designated marksmen rifles now being used once upon a time the design was intended to be/actually a standard infantry rifle. The M14 (sniperised as the M21, M25, Mk14, whatever else) was just a standard infantry rifle in nam for a while.

As this is a historical kinda game I suppose you will see these differences in doctrine illustrated.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Colt .45 Killer wrote:
Well the main point of my post was to uselessly nitpick that .50 BMG was not originally made for a rifle but a MG. After that I just got about to agreeing with the rest of your post without directly applying lips to asses... :lol:

Yeah just giving you a hard time. I need something to do on here as the cake bakes, no? :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Cake, did you say Cake?!

*Lemme just grab my portal gun here and pop into your kitcen for a quick raid of the Alliance dungeon*

Tbh though I missed a few posts like VV that one there which is why I jestingly responded to your post instead of this one...

#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Hmm, interesting stuff. Many sniper rifles are usually chambered for bigger rounds though if im remembering things correctly. For example, you have the Barret M1A2 with it's massive 50 BMG round. From what I've seen, the upper limit on normal rifles is around 7.62x51. Older rifles had some bigger rounds like the .30 06 but nothing that came close to the 50 cal. I've also seem some round types for sniper rifles like SLAP and API that I don't hear about being used with normal rifles. Rifles like the m4 usually use ball I think.

EDIT : the stuff about optics definitely has me drooling. I think it will be really cool to have some sort of indepth sniper training when you learn how to adjust the optics, etc. Hopefully, the game will rely on context (so the same button can be used for many things) as opposed to having to memorize many controls. For example, the fire button could be used to adjust one of the knobs on the scope when you are looking down it instead of having to assign a completely new button fore it. Something like that.



Ok I just noticed this but ... the Barret 50 Cal is a series of rifles. There have been the M82, M95, M98, M107 ETC however there has never been a M1a2, that my good sir is an Abrams tank. If you'd said M1a1 then it could have been a Tommygun, but I know of no other M1a2's OTHER than the tank one. Yes if you're wondering if I'm chuckling now I am ... Only because I just had the mental image of someone using an Abrams as a transportation device for their "Uber sniper rifl3" with 120 MM of Smoothbore goodness.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:13 pm 
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Got me thinking, we should start a French-themed barbershop quartet called The Discarding Sabots.

Who's in?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:48 pm 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
Got me thinking, we should start a French-themed barbershop quartet called The Discarding Sabots.

Who's in?


Only if we get to sing some songs and have them playing on one or two maps somewhere. Something like an Easter egg, just not as pleasant..

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:53 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IRQ0d2b ... DECA&t=25s

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