The War
Headlines
Movies
Screenshots
Alliance Community
2011: We're Back!

Alliance: The Silent War

Community Forums for Alliance: The Silent War
It is currently Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:06 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Indepth active reloading
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:23 am 
Offline
Private First Class

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:52 pm
Posts: 15
I tend to suggest this for every upcoming tactical shooter but it's a big thing to implement and could end up having the entire game revolve around it.

What I propose is that pressing the Reload key creates a deadzone around your gun where you use the mouse cursor to click mag release buttons and drag back cocking levers.

----------------------------------------

Typically in games you just press a button and an animation is played showing the rapid exchanging of the empty magazine with a new one. In real life it is a process that needs the user’s attention and can take up valuable seconds.

Ingame example:

Image

The Green lines represents the deadzone. Mouse movement within this will not alter the player's direction. The Red lines represent parts of the gun that can be moved if clicked on or clicked & dragged with the mouse. The Purple lines represent POV boundary changes. They are always within the Green area and crossing the line with the mouse cursor will cause the player to shift their gun to a new perspective, e.g. move the mouse cursor from left-to-right across the right-most Purple boundary to turn the gun 90 degrees left so its right side is facing upwards. Move the cursor right-to-left across the Purple boundary that is now on the left-most side of the gun to return it to its normal position. This is so the player can access things like cocking-levers positioned on the right side of a weapon, or magazine releases on a Bull-Pup that would normally be hidden off-camera in the default FPS perspective. None of these lines would be visible in the game, they're just for tutorial purposes.

You wish to change magazine on an MP5. Press Reload key (defaut "R") to enter reload mode. Depending on how much accuracy vs. ease-of-use the devs want, you can either have it so you must click and drag the paddle release forward to release the magazine, or you could have it so that you only have to click and drag downwards on the magazine to release it. You then click and drag a magazine icon at the bottom of the screen (as spare magazines would be "below" the player in his vest/belt) and drag the icon up. This brings a 3D magazine model towards the receiver port until it clicks in. You then click and drag the cocking lever if the chamber was empty when you hit reload. Once this is done the game automatically leaves reload mode and you are free to shoot as normal. This happens on the previous step if a bullet was already chambered. Pressing R at any time will exit reload mode no matter what state the gun is in. Magazine icons and bullet counts are only visible during reload mode.

This adds a whole extra dimension to the guns and simultaneously makes an advance on traditional FPS gameplay. Bull-pups, normally examples of a game's best AR, will have the disadvantage of being slightly more fiddly to reload. Battle rifles with a big cocking lever like the FAL, or simpler designed guns like the AK47, will be easier to reload.

Also, guns will have a more physical presence. If a player wants to do things in the wrong order like manually eject all 30 cartridges, they can. If they want to flip up/down or twist the iron sights, they can. If they want to change the fire-select mode, they can.

Shotguns and bolt-action rifles would handle slightly differently. Bolt-action rifles automatically form the dead zone around the gun in between each shot fired. This is so the player can raise and pull backwards on the bolt with the mouse to chamber the next round. They still must press R to enter the full reload mode that allows them to insert a fresh magazine. Shotguns are slightly different. They fire faster than bolt-action rifles and it would be too cumbersome to make the player click & drag backwards on the pump with the mouse in between each shot. In between each shot the player will need to quickly move the mouse cursor downwards a few inches and then up once, to pump the shotgun. There is no deadzone and this will slightly jerk the player’s perspective, but this will simulate racking the pump on such a large weapon. Shotguns and bolt-action rifles are reloaded by dragging one round at a time into the gun until the mag is full.

The 3D hands shouldn't move except to raise or lower a mag. Animating them for all actions would be too much work and they would block the player's view.

Should definitely make changing to your sidearm a viable option if you run out of ammo mid-fight. Maybe drop your current gun if you change weapon whilst in the middle of Reload mode.

------------------------------------

Extended ideas to give the guns more physical presence. This would define the gameplay for the whole project and leave no room for the dev's ideas, so I'm not holding my breath.

Despite the clumsiness of its interface, I found the classic game Trespasser made guns “feel” the most real because they were actual objects you could pick up and interact with rather than having them fixed to the side of your screen with no movement like in most FPSs. Which is why I think the game should also feature extensive gun movement within the player’s field of vision. Like in games such as Red Steel, ArmA, Metroid Prime moving the mouse will move your gun and arms around until the crosshair (and gun) reaches the edge of the screen and then the player turns. This is done because it allows you to see your weapon from multiple angles and reminds you that it is an independent object from yourself. This will improve the “feel” of the gun much in the same way Trespasser did. Large guns will move slightly slower. There is the disadvantage of having a larger than usual dead zone in the middle of the screen but many games make use of this without having sluggish controls (and sometimes whilst only having a gamepad instead of a mouse). It can also hamper accurate aiming as the gun’s angle relative to the player is constantly changing and therefore not lining up with the crosshair. There are several solutions to this. Mafia 2 fixed this by having bullets be emitted from the centre of the screen regardless of where the gun barrel was pointing. Another way to fix it would be to have the mouse move the crosshair and have that dictate the gun’s angle depending on the nearest object it’s overlaid on, rather than the usual method of having where the gun is pointing dictate the position of the crosshair. Pointer controls also compatible with PS3 Move and WiiU controllers.

Spent magazines ejected are actual independent objects that will fall to the floor. If there are some bullets left in it it can be picked up again. Unused bullets in ejected magazines do not magically transfer to the player’s ammo count.

The player's gun is also an independent physical object and can collide with the environment. Moving the mouse cursor to an extreme edge on a long rifle so the barrel is at an angle and then trying to walk through a slim doorway would make the gun collide with the edge, either halting the player if they're walking, or letting the player continue but the gun is automatically dropped if they are running.

Quick-change button - like pulling out your sidearm normally except you drop the gun you were holding to pull it out and have to pick it back up afterwards. Holding the quick-change button can charge the throwing of your weapon. If it hits an enemy they go into a flinch animation giving you the extra 2 seconds to aim your sidearm. Impact and trajectory of throw affected by gun's weight.

Extra invert mouse option to invert Reload mode cursor - Remember Crysis?

Image

I play inverted but when you hit the customise weapon key it would confuse me as the cursor went back to normal. It may be wise to automatically invert the reload mode cursor if inverted mouse is selected. It'll be a bit weird but it feels better than switching between normal and inverted everytime to enter Reload mode.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:45 pm 
Offline
2nd Lieutenant

Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 592
ehhh...

I am always all for adding interesting ideas, I just do not see how this adds much other than tedium to the game.

The mouse + KB combo does not work well to simulate the work that can be done with hands, and in general this idea will leave players struggling over something that is mundane and easy in real life.

_________________
No sigs makes threads load faster!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:05 pm 
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 11:22 pm
Posts: 1826
Location: Hayward, Cali
Something that I think would be neat would be to have the reloading go through different "stages", so if you interrupt it and later hit r again to reload, the process picks up where it left off. In most games, you have to do do the whole thing over again..

What im wondering about is how reloading will work with the different kinds of ammo you are carrying. Like if you had 5.56 ball in your current empty mag and you want to put in a new mag of say ap.. how would that work? I would be in favor of some sort of a radial menu for chosing ammo types, grenade types, etc..

_________________
Go pioneers!

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:29 pm 
Offline
Private First Class

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:52 pm
Posts: 15
Colt .45 Killer wrote:
The mouse + KB combo does not work well to simulate the work that can be done with hands, and in general this idea will leave players struggling over something that is mundane and easy in real life.


I would have thought the same until I played Penumbra, and later they refined their object manipulation controls & physics-based animations even furher in Amnesia. Also reloading a gun is not nearly as easy as video games portray it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:18 pm 
Offline
Lieutenant Colonel
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 11:22 pm
Posts: 1826
Location: Hayward, Cali
temp89 wrote:
Colt .45 Killer wrote:
The mouse + KB combo does not work well to simulate the work that can be done with hands, and in general this idea will leave players struggling over something that is mundane and easy in real life.


I would have thought the same until I played Penumbra, and later they refined their object manipulation controls & physics-based animations even furher in Amnesia. Also reloading a gun is not nearly as easy as video games portray it.

It's not that hard. Some guns there may be some subtle nuances but it's not like a game can recreate having to insert a mag at an angle or something. Granted, Ive played penumbra and I think the interactive physics is very neat and has a lot of potential. I would like to see it used in games instead of the generic "press e to open door" but it would make reloading very tedious. Players would just stand there fumbling around with their weapon.. I dont know how it could be used to move objects freely. It works better for something like a drawer or a door whose movement is somehow limited.

I do however agree with your point about giving the guns more physical presence. It seems as if most shooters still have yet to make a lot of progress in this area.

_________________
Go pioneers!

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:35 pm 
Offline
Major General
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:59 pm
Posts: 1027
Location: Houston, TX
Yeah sorry thats a pretty poor idea. You cant make it take fifteen steps to do one simple task thats just going to piss people off and get them killed in firefights.

The reloading would already be leaps and bounds above other games if the reloading process simply started from where it left off in the event of a weapon change

_________________
Image
"Dream a little bit
This is the kush to your lighter"

The NZG Specialist, Stick Wielder, Shotgun Extraordinaire


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:37 pm 
Offline
Four Star General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:14 am
Posts: 472
Location: New York, NY
We'll be paying quite a bit of attention to weapon state (in battery, open action, slide back or forward, etc. etc. etc. throughout all of your usage.)

We wouldn't have it any other way :)

_________________
http://www.alliancethegame.com/update.php


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:09 am 
Offline
Recruit

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 11:58 pm
Posts: 3
I liked the idea Gears of War had, where you could take the chance to tap the reload key a second time at a precise point and risk failing, slowing down your reload. It's a nice system, has potential payoff if you don't screw up. About as complicated as it needs to be.

----

It would be cool to see the reload separated into stages, where in between any of them switching weapons would not restart the reload animation, allowing you to switch to a pistol or grenade in a hairy situation and be able to come back to your reload without having lost progress. You could then continue the reload by tapping the reload key.

A common situation and the placement of "checkpoints"

Remove empty magazine
x
Insert new magazine
x
Cock charging handle


Where x's are checkpoints.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:22 pm 
Offline
2nd Lieutenant

Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 592
On this subject, incremental reloads.

Ive played a few shooters where all pump shotguns or weapons that loaded via individual rounds were a press and hold reload in order to load shells. Letting go stopped the reload. This was HUGE because it meant you could keep a running tally of your shotgun shells and if you had a break quickly pop one or two more in the tube even if you didn't have the time to spare for a full reload.

There should also be checkpoints in any reload animation, supposing I pull out the magazine on my weapon and insert a fresh one without releasing the bolt catch or closing the bolt ( depending on what kind of weapon this is ). IF I then switch weapons for whatever reason and then later pull it back out, I should resume where I left off instead of restarting the process.

_________________
No sigs makes threads load faster!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:01 pm 
Offline
Major General
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:59 pm
Posts: 1027
Location: Houston, TX
I liked glubert's idea of "stages" in the process but I think itd be better used in something besides reloading.

There should be a series of steps to clear a jam (assuming there is to be weapon jamming in Simulation lvl difficulty for instance) depending on the nature of the malfunction and the weapon involved. Ive watched a handful of (legitimately!) downloaded weapons tactics videos by masaad ayood, gunsite etc for grins and what really surprised me was how well thought each of their solutions to a problem was. All very systematic.
Perhaps some weapons could be more resistant/prone to misfires or jams?

though I think its worth mentioning that most people would Hate weapon jamming in any other mode than the hardest, myself being one of them. Part of me ragequitting Americas Army was how frequently the damn M16a2 would jam >.< Or maybe I was just shooting more than the average person :mrgreen:

_________________
Image
"Dream a little bit
This is the kush to your lighter"

The NZG Specialist, Stick Wielder, Shotgun Extraordinaire


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:12 pm 
Offline
2nd Lieutenant

Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 592
I wouldn't mind jamming if it was somhow tied to the weapons actual jamming rate. So you know what you are getting into before you pick up that piece of hardware.

Secondly on jamming there are a few different types of jamming, lack of cleaning/maintenance, and just jamming during regular use. IMO because players cannot "clean and maintain" their weapons these kinds of jams should be discounted and the Jam rate should just be grabbed directly from military stress tests on weapons. ( These start with a clean weapon and basically keep firing it till it jams ). Tbh though off the top of my head the M60 was somewhere around ~850 rnds before a jam, and the M240 is over 1500 before the first jam, so these jams would be infrequent on most guns except those of Jam prone designs. On that note I guess you might want to let people set the # of rounds they want loaded into their magazines on a per gun basis. The Shemeisser mp40 for example was often loaded with 29-30 rnds in the magazine which could hold up to 32 but jammed more often when done so...

_________________
No sigs makes threads load faster!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:09 pm 
Offline
Major General
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:09 pm
Posts: 1312
Location: Texas
Spiffinz wrote:
I liked glubert's idea of "stages" in the process but I think itd be better used in something besides reloading.

There should be a series of steps to clear a jam (assuming there is to be weapon jamming in Simulation lvl difficulty for instance) depending on the nature of the malfunction and the weapon involved. Ive watched a handful of (legitimately!) downloaded weapons tactics videos by masaad ayood, gunsite etc for grins and what really surprised me was how well thought each of their solutions to a problem was. All very systematic.
Perhaps some weapons could be more resistant/prone to misfires or jams?

though I think its worth mentioning that most people would Hate weapon jamming in any other mode than the hardest, myself being one of them. Part of me ragequitting Americas Army was how frequently the damn M16a2 would jam >.< Or maybe I was just shooting more than the average person :mrgreen:


You know, I played America's Army for quite a while, ask Bigdaddy, but I don't think either him nor I ever experienced a jam on any weapon at any point in the game, whether single or multiplayer.

Colt .45 Killer wrote:
I wouldn't mind jamming if it was somhow tied to the weapons actual jamming rate. So you know what you are getting into before you pick up that piece of hardware.


You know how in Gran Turismo 4 you could change the oil in your car and wash it? Maybe we should implement something like that.

Just kidding, that is an awful idea.

But you are correct, most jams occur because of fouling and negligence. There are very few firearms, new and old, that will jam within the first few hundred rounds after a good cleaning (I'm assuming that each time you start a game, your firearm is more or less mint). It might be feasible to implement a sort of fouling system, basically the exact opposite of killstreak rewards in CoD, wherein the more rounds you put through your weapon before dying, the more and more probably a jam is likely to occur. That's the only reasonable scenario I can imagine jamming being implemented.

_________________
Image
Head of Zombie Suit Manufacturing, Supplying Guns to the Mentally Stable, Lead Researcher for Weapons, Grand Requisitioner, and Master Keeper of the NZG Armoury.
Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:17 am 
Offline
Four Star General
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:14 am
Posts: 472
Location: New York, NY
Yeah, jamming is something we'll have to put in as an option for the hardest of the hardcore.

How we'll do it remains to be seen.

Barrel melting FTW!!!! :)

_________________
http://www.alliancethegame.com/update.php


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:47 am 
Offline
2nd Lieutenant

Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:17 pm
Posts: 592
DerMann wrote:
Spiffinz wrote:
I liked glubert's idea of "stages" in the process but I think itd be better used in something besides reloading.

There should be a series of steps to clear a jam (assuming there is to be weapon jamming in Simulation lvl difficulty for instance) depending on the nature of the malfunction and the weapon involved. Ive watched a handful of (legitimately!) downloaded weapons tactics videos by masaad ayood, gunsite etc for grins and what really surprised me was how well thought each of their solutions to a problem was. All very systematic.
Perhaps some weapons could be more resistant/prone to misfires or jams?

though I think its worth mentioning that most people would Hate weapon jamming in any other mode than the hardest, myself being one of them. Part of me ragequitting Americas Army was how frequently the damn M16a2 would jam >.< Or maybe I was just shooting more than the average person :mrgreen:


You know, I played America's Army for quite a while, ask Bigdaddy, but I don't think either him nor I ever experienced a jam on any weapon at any point in the game, whether single or multiplayer.

Colt .45 Killer wrote:
I wouldn't mind jamming if it was somhow tied to the weapons actual jamming rate. So you know what you are getting into before you pick up that piece of hardware.




You know how in Gran Turismo 4 you could change the oil in your car and wash it? Maybe we should implement something like that.

Just kidding, that is an awful idea.

But you are correct, most jams occur because of fouling and negligence. There are very few firearms, new and old, that will jam within the first few hundred rounds after a good cleaning (I'm assuming that each time you start a game, your firearm is more or less mint). It might be feasible to implement a sort of fouling system, basically the exact opposite of killstreak rewards in CoD, wherein the more rounds you put through your weapon before dying, the more and more probably a jam is likely to occur. That's the only reasonable scenario I can imagine jamming being implemented.



Yeah, because I'ma gonna go rambo and fire >800 rounds out of my M60 .... :P

That's not too bad of an idea though, if you had something ARMA scale where you might go three hours of intense combat without dying. I was on an ARMA 2 CO ACE opp once that lasted 8 hours, I had a SCAR L with Beta C mags and fired over ~2000 rounds of ammo. We were taking the UTES island, so it was pretty solid combat throughout the entire thing with a few small trips back to base to grab moar bullets.

_________________
No sigs makes threads load faster!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group