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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:37 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py3SI9KLsp0

Finally a mag fed, all metal, kick ass looking air rifle! *sniff its beautiful*

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:53 am 
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You know, as long as you're not a felon, far cheaper and more practical _real_ rifles exist for purchase... right?

You know it ain't difficult to buy firearms, even in Kommifornia.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Def man and this is something that im looking into but what i really love about air guns is just how you arent bound by firearms laws. You and your friends going somewhere where firearms arent allowed? They cant do shit cause its not a firearm! You can literally shoot in anywhere! In cali this is something that you can really appreciate. I really want something that looks badass and i dont know it seems like a real rifle that looks anywhere near this awesome could run upwards of $1000.. Air guns are very budget friendly too. I mean, a tin of pellets costs only a few bucks.

Point is i want to lose my gun shooting virginity and this looks like the perfect way. Sig is coming out with a pcp version that comes in 22 and 25 caliber and many pcp rifles break the sound barrier which should give you a nice crack when you fire :D Plus most of the budget ar 15s look like standard m16s which looks meh in my opinion. A 25 cal pellet puts out roughly 36 foot/lbs of energy at at around 800 fps which honestly is a little crazy considering that that the first "gun" i ever got would routinely punch through one end of a soup can at around and out the other (usually shot from around 20 yards i would guess) and it only has roughly 2 foot/lbs. Even at 85 yards it (the 25 cal pcp version) will probably have enough energy to do this
https://youtu.be/_wwFEHxYy38?t=3m41s

Given that most of my shooting involves paper targets, i would doubt if you need any more than single foot/fb to punch through a pie tin or something (did this with my neighbors for hours the other day so much fun!) you'll still be able to reach out to around 115 yards. This is all according to some numbers i threw into a trajectory calculator anyway. And ill be damned if i could even hit a soda bottle at 115 yards currently :D Or probably even a truck full of of potatoes to be honest.

Ar15s are banned in california anyway. That is if im reading the wiki properly. Seems like you arent allowed to have a telescoping stock which is kind a bummer. If i go the pcp route, i get to have virtually whatever i want, which includes 30 round magazines and i think the guy said that they will also offer a 100 round magazine.. which sounds awesome.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:09 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:54 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Def man and this is something that im looking into but what i really love about air guns is just how you arent bound by firearms laws. You and your friends going somewhere where firearms arent allowed? They cant do shit cause its not a firearm! You can literally shoot in anywhere! In cali this is something that you can really appreciate. I really want something that looks badass and i dont know it seems like a real rifle that looks anywhere near this awesome could run upwards of $1000.. Air guns are very budget friendly too. I mean, a tin of pellets costs only a few bucks.

Point is i want to lose my gun shooting virginity and this looks like the perfect way. Sig is coming out with a pcp version that comes in 22 and 25 caliber and many pcp rifles break the sound barrier which should give you a nice crack when you fire :D Plus most of the budget ar 15s look like standard m16s which looks meh in my opinion. A 25 cal pellet puts out roughly 36 foot/lbs of energy at at around 800 fps which honestly is a little crazy considering that that the first "gun" i ever got would routinely punch through one end of a soup can at around and out the other (usually shot from around 20 yards i would guess) and it only has roughly 2 foot/lbs. Even at 85 yards it (the 25 cal pcp version) will probably have enough energy to do this
https://youtu.be/_wwFEHxYy38?t=3m41s

Given that most of my shooting involves paper targets, i would doubt if you need any more than single foot/fb to punch through a pie tin or something (did this with my neighbors for hours the other day so much fun!) you'll still be able to reach out to around 115 yards. This is all according to some numbers i threw into a trajectory calculator anyway. And ill be damned if i could even hit a soda bottle at 115 yards currently :D Or probably even a truck full of of potatoes to be honest.

Ar15s are banned in california anyway. That is if im reading the wiki properly. Seems like you arent allowed to have a telescoping stock which is kind a bummer. If i go the pcp route, i get to have virtually whatever i want, which includes 30 round magazines and i think the guy said that they will also offer a 100 round magazine.. which sounds awesome.

Everything you know is wrong.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KThlYHfIVa8

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:47 pm 
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Could very well be man. I will the first to admit that i dont know shit about firearms :D What i do know is that anything with more than 10 rounds is banned in cali and that sounds like a whole lot of reloading :D Sig will offer a 70 round magazine and when each of those rounds weighs in at like 25 grains (was the first 25 cal pellet that came up on google) you're talking about some serious home defense potential, especially when you consider that pcp pushes out pellets in alot of guns at over 600 fps. I come from palo alto which has almost zero crime but who knows where i might end up living? Home defense is actually a thing for me, atleast it could be.

It seems like for the low $200 price of this you are mostly limited to military surplus and cheap hand guns. Sure you have your ruger 10/22 but in order to get it looking anywhere near that badass you will need to spend hundreds $$ on a conversion kit. I will admit the archangel kit looks pretty awesome though. :) This thing isnt some plastic gun with a toy feel. It's just like the real thing aside from the fact that it fire 25 cal pellets as opposed to 9mm. Same controls, same weight, etc. No silly cocking or pumping that slows your shooting down. :) Alot of pellet guns do sort of pale in convenience to real firearms no doubt what with having to load in the shots one by one which does sort of take your eye off the target. Having to pump a few times feels like a nuisance compares to you know just firing as fast as you can pull the trigger. But thats the beauty of this. 25 cal pellets as fast as you can pull the trigger! This isnt your little cousins daisy red ryder that he uses to knock over coke cans. :D Just look it it, it looks meaner than a texas armadillo xD

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:36 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Could very well be man. I will the first to admit that i dont know shit about firearms :D What i do know is that anything with more than 10 rounds is banned in cali and that sounds like a whole lot of reloading :D Sig will offer a 70 round magazine and when each of those rounds weighs in at like 25 grains (was the first 25 cal pellet that came up on google) you're talking about some serious home defense potential, especially when you consider that pcp pushes out pellets in alot of guns at over 600 fps. I come from palo alto which has almost zero crime but who knows where i might end up living? Home defense is actually a thing for me, atleast it could be.

It seems like for the low $200 price of this you are mostly limited to military surplus and cheap hand guns. Sure you have your ruger 10/22 but in order to get it looking anywhere near that badass you will need to spend hundreds $$ on a conversion kit. I will admit the archangel kit looks pretty awesome though. :) This thing isnt some plastic gun with a toy feel. It's just like the real thing aside from the fact that it fire 25 cal pellets as opposed to 9mm. Same controls, same weight, etc. No silly cocking or pumping that slows your shooting down. :) Alot of pellet guns do sort of pale in convenience to real firearms no doubt what with having to load in the shots one by one which does sort of take your eye off the target. Having to pump a few times feels like a nuisance compares to you know just firing as fast as you can pull the trigger. But thats the beauty of this. 25 cal pellets as fast as you can pull the trigger! This isnt your little cousins daisy red ryder that he uses to knock over coke cans. :D Just look it it, it looks meaner than a texas armadillo xD


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:38 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
I come from palo alto which has almost zero crime but who knows where i might end up living? Home defense is actually a thing for me, atleast it could be.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:36 am 
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Alright, figured I'd throw my hat into the ring, in this case to defend the poor and encircled Neo.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with what he's written viz a viz the air gun (though I don't agree necessarily with everything else).

First off, the fact that that gun (it is technically a gun) skirts nearly every CA law is in and of itself a huge boon. CA is notoriously hard on gun owners but, liberals thinking as they do about guns, they've left this field completely or nearly completely unregulated. What's left is essentially a .22 with no mag cap, no other silly regulations, nothing. A .25, 25gr projectile at 600-800 fps is nothing to scoff at. No it's not a .308, but it's hardly a toy either. And the whole thing will run.. what- $200?

But onto the more important point. .22 and air gun shooting is where fundamentals are created. I've known quite a number of tactical shooters with gobs of money to spend who rig up a sniper rifle identical to their actual rig, down to the stock and $3000-$4000 scope, off a Remington 40X .22 action as a trainer. They know that the principles of firing that thing are identical to their other rig, so they do so at a tiny fraction of the cost of shooting $1.33/round match .308. Olympic shooters (both Summer and Winter games) shoot exclusively with .22 and air rifle. The principles are identical. Any serious shooter can and should train, train, train on .22 or air with reduced targets and at reduced distances.

And this thing will cost nothing to shoot. Like, nothing. Sure, he can go get a Mosin beater for $200, but then he needs range transportation and fees/membership, cleaning supplies, bla bla bla. A $200 gun is never just a $200 gun. And the ammo- oh, the ammo. Even cheap surplus stuff will cost him a small fortune compared to his spending ability right now.

In short- it ain't a toy, it's dirt cheap, all the guys and gals who shoot way better than people on this thread shoot them all the time for training, and it's a great way to start with a small budget and in a place that ain't exactly gun friendly.

There Neo, at least one on your side ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:33 am 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
Alright, figured I'd throw my hat into the ring, in this case to defend the poor and encircled Neo.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with what he's written viz a viz the air gun (though I don't agree necessarily with everything else).

First off, the fact that that gun (it is technically a gun) skirts nearly every CA law is in and of itself a huge boon. CA is notoriously hard on gun owners but, liberals thinking as they do about guns, they've left this field completely or nearly completely unregulated. What's left is essentially a .22 with no mag cap, no other silly regulations, nothing. A .25, 25gr projectile at 600-800 fps is nothing to scoff at. No it's not a .308, but it's hardly a toy either. And the whole thing will run.. what- $200?

But onto the more important point. .22 and air gun shooting is where fundamentals are created. I've known quite a number of tactical shooters with gobs of money to spend who rig up a sniper rifle identical to their actual rig, down to the stock and $3000-$4000 scope, off a Remington 40X .22 action as a trainer. They know that the principles of firing that thing are identical to their other rig, so they do so at a tiny fraction of the cost of shooting $1.33/round match .308. Olympic shooters (both Summer and Winter games) shoot exclusively with .22 and air rifle. The principles are identical. Any serious shooter can and should train, train, train on .22 or air with reduced targets and at reduced distances.

And this thing will cost nothing to shoot. Like, nothing. Sure, he can go get a Mosin beater for $200, but then he needs range transportation and fees/membership, cleaning supplies, bla bla bla. A $200 gun is never just a $200 gun. And the ammo- oh, the ammo. Even cheap surplus stuff will cost him a small fortune compared to his spending ability right now.

In short- it ain't a toy, it's dirt cheap, all the guys and gals who shoot way better than people on this thread shoot them all the time for training, and it's a great way to start with a small budget and in a place that ain't exactly gun friendly.

There Neo, at least one on your side ;)



Don't try to be the white knight Asi. Everything you said is correct, and that is not why we are doing gods work. Training is key to shooting, but thinking this air rifle will be good for self defense is laughable at best. If 2 Chris Brown's come into your house in the middle of the night and one has a gun, and you come out with your little air rifle..bad things will happen. Sure if you shoot them in the eye or something it might work, but the chances of that are very slim. I'd rather have a baseball bat at that point, because it's equally useless against an armed intruder. When I very first started shooting, I had pellet guns and a .22 and that's how I learned the fundamentals, but to think that this air rifle is anything more then just a training tool, is ludicrous.

Now on with the show (these are directed at you Asi)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:52 pm 
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Quote:
Alright, figured I'd throw my hat into the ring, in this case to defend the poor and encircled Neo.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with what he's written viz a viz the air gun (though I don't agree necessarily with everything else).

First off, the fact that that gun (it is technically a gun) skirts nearly every CA law is in and of itself a huge boon. CA is notoriously hard on gun owners but, liberals thinking as they do about guns, they've left this field completely or nearly completely unregulated. What's left is essentially a .22 with no mag cap, no other silly regulations, nothing. A .25, 25gr projectile at 600-800 fps is nothing to scoff at. No it's not a .308, but it's hardly a toy either. And the whole thing will run.. what- $200?

But onto the more important point. .22 and air gun shooting is where fundamentals are created. I've known quite a number of tactical shooters with gobs of money to spend who rig up a sniper rifle identical to their actual rig, down to the stock and $3000-$4000 scope, off a Remington 40X .22 action as a trainer. They know that the principles of firing that thing are identical to their other rig, so they do so at a tiny fraction of the cost of shooting $1.33/round match .308. Olympic shooters (both Summer and Winter games) shoot exclusively with .22 and air rifle. The principles are identical. Any serious shooter can and should train, train, train on .22 or air with reduced targets and at reduced distances.

And this thing will cost nothing to shoot. Like, nothing. Sure, he can go get a Mosin beater for $200, but then he needs range transportation and fees/membership, cleaning supplies, bla bla bla. A $200 gun is never just a $200 gun. And the ammo- oh, the ammo. Even cheap surplus stuff will cost him a small fortune compared to his spending ability right now.

In short- it ain't a toy, it's dirt cheap, all the guys and gals who shoot way better than people on this thread shoot them all the time for training, and it's a great way to start with a small budget and in a place that ain't exactly gun friendly.

There Neo, at least one on your side ;)

Woooo i have an ally at last! Bingo! This is more or less why ive decided to go the route of air guns. Dirt cheap and it allows me to skirt the vast majority of californias gun laws! They are def not toys either. I think bigdaddy's point holds more or less true of the crappy $30 guns that you get at walmart, but this is hardly that. Given that a .22 ca pellet travelling at around 750 can pierce a steel ammo can (there is a video of this on youtube) i dont think there is a room to question the self defense that you get with 25 cal. Not to mention that this looks virtually identical to the real firearm produced by sig. If said chris browns came into my house, i am wiling to bet that they would mistake it for the real thing. Relatively speaking 177 is childs play, mostly suited for shooting soda cans in your back yard but 25 cal is a whole new story.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:38 pm 
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I wouldn't say it's a great home defense option.. if you can legally own one, I'd say get a decent caliber handgun (.40 or above), buy enough ammo to fill it with a mag or two (and get some practice in), and put it away. For general shooting principles and practice, that's what the air gun is good for. Piercing skin is one thing, stopping power is a whole 'nother. Assailants won't likely be stopped by a projectile about as big as a grain of rice traveling that slowly. You know how 9mm and .223 both get a bad rap for not being strong enough to do the job? Well imagine that thing right there. More of an annoyance than a real deterrent.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:38 pm 
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Hmmm, well a 25 cal pellet delivers roughly 1/4 the power of a 9mm from what i can tell when. I think a real firearm carries much more of guarantee of stopping an attacker, but then there is also the flip side of the coin where you wake up the whole neighborhood and freak out your room mates. Other thing that im thinking is given at how realistic it looks would prob be enough to deter an assailant. I havent had much experience with real firearms, do pistols get much use for plinking? I was under the impression that a pistol is only accurate to about 25 feet but i could be could be completely wrong :D I want to do plinking at around 100 yards

If i were an assailant i wouldnt want to go up against this. Virtually impossible to tell that it's not the real thing. In fact, there was an incident at a walmart where police mistook the crossman mk117 for the real thing even though it's completely plastic.
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Last edited by #//neostyles.CD on Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:25 pm 
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In a home invasion scenario you're likely to be in the dark, and the whole thing is probably going to last seconds. The only thing beyond a slug to the chest or to the head that has any chance of deterring an intruder is the sound of a shotgun racking, and even that I don't know holds any real value outside of what internet commandos claim. So you're left with depending on lights on, the guy(s) not charging you, and you being able to intimidate them with false colors of a real gun. Super. Meh.

That air gun is fine for training and practice and learning the basics of controlling a firearm. It is NOT a viable home invasion solution.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:46 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Hmmm, well a 25 cal pellet delivers roughly 1/4 the power of a 9mm from what i can tell when. Other thing that im thinking is given at how realistic it looks would prob be enough to deter an assailant. I havent had much experience with real firearms, do pistols get much use for plinking?

If i were an assailant i wouldnt want to go up against this. Virtually impossible to tell that it's not the real thing. In fact, there was an incident at a walmart where police mistook the crossman mk117 for the real thing even though it's completely plastic.
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Basically the effect of your bb gun vs Trayvon breaking into your parents house.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:02 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Hmmm, well a 25 cal pellet delivers roughly 1/4 the power of a 9mm from what i can tell when. I think a real firearm carries much more of guarantee of stopping an attacker, but then there is also the flip side of the coin where you wake up the whole neighborhood and freak out your room mates. Other thing that im thinking is given at how realistic it looks would prob be enough to deter an assailant. I havent had much experience with real firearms, do pistols get much use for plinking? I was under the impression that a pistol is only accurate to about 25 feet but i could be could be completely wrong :D I want to do plinking at around 100 yards

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Hmmm, well a 25 cal pellet delivers roughly 1/4 the power of a 9mm from what i can tell when.

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a 25 cal pellet delivers roughly 1/4 the power of a 9mm from what i can

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36 ft/lbs does not equate to a quarter of nearly 400 ft/lbs of energy.

The Army has done research and its findings show that something like 60-100 ft/lbs of force a required to produce any sort of debilitating wound on clothed humans.

Buy a Mosin-Nagant M1891/30 for $150, especially since it's free of all the legal entanglements of CA (there isn't even a long-gun registry there) and buy a spam can of 7.62x54R for $100 and be done with it. Enjoy your actual firearm that is actually capable of defensive use that doesn't require one to place shots in Tray-Tray Brown's eye-socket.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:16 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
I was under the impression that a pistol is only accurate to about 25 feet but i could be could be completely wrong :D I want to do plinking at around 100 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:33 pm 
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Hey like i said not too much knowledge of real firearms. Im hardly jerry miculek too. Growing up in a pretty liberal family, i havent really had much exposure to guns before. I grew up in place where you see bumper stickers that say "end this war" can be found in spades. So yes, bigdaddy can probably outshoot me if i had to guess. Ive just outgrew sort of shooting at the 20-30 yard range that is my backyard. Also, this is hardly a bb gun. You are trying to equate it with this right?
http://s93.photobucket.com/user/TxPhant ... 3.jpg.html
This is a misconception amongst firearm users. Yes, i have used a plenty of wimpy bb guns before, this i would argue is not one of them.

A high end pcp shoots at around 900 fps and 25 cal pellets (ones at the lighter end of the scale) weigh in at 25 grains. A bb is 5 grains. Like i said not a bb gun. This gives you 45 foot lbs of energy. Ive heard that a 9mm handgun produces around 200 foot lbs of energy so its a stretch sure, but it gives you roughly 1/4 pf the energy of a lower powererd 9mm. Now they do however go up to much heavier like these that are 45 grain
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Eun_Jin_2 ... d_83ct/725

I humbly submit i doubt an attacker would be able to just shrug this off. This isnt one of those toys where you have to put the pellets in one by one. This fires as as you can pull the trigger. I might be able to empty half the the 25 round magazine in a few seconds.

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The Army has done research and its findings show that something like 60-100 ft/lbs of force a required to produce any sort of debilitating wound on clothed humans.

Sure, but i doubt being hit by a dozen 40 grain pellets feels awfully nice. This gives you around 550 foot lbs of energy which is greater than several rifle calibers. Many 35 cal pellets are comparble in weight atleast to certain firearms. Recoil is probably almost nonexistant which means that you can get terrific accuracy with quick firing shots. A mosin nagant looks like a stupid amount of fun to shoot but if i were to shoot an intruder with that that bullet is probably going to through two or so walls. Even wimply bb pistols that shoot a 5 grain projectile can pierce dry wall. Im a terrible shot compared to most people here (you could all probably outshoot me drunk) but with a 25 round magazine i could also probably get atleast one shot in the leg and i doubt any intruder could still come towards you when hit multiple times in the leg with a 40 grain pellet. And i am a pretty strong dude i could nail the intruder in the face afterwards with the butt of the gun because it is you know all metal and not a plastic bb gun as bigdaddy trying to imply. :D I see what you did there.

Having used a few co2 pistols i really love the small size that comes with them and i really like asi's idea to be honest. My first bb pistol was modeled after a sig so i might like to get me one of their actual hand guns. The p230 looks very nice.
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tl:dr version not everything that isnt a firearm is created equal. Shooting is fun :D I need to get a job so i can get these :D

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:46 pm 
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You're wrong. Go watch the video that just went up of the black guy in South Carolina who was shot in the back by a white cop. That guy runs a good 10-15 yards away from the cop while the cop empties his entire magazine of what must be 9mm or .40 S&W bullets into his back. It doesn't stop him. In your scenario, the perp(s) would close distance with you immediately and stab you or do some serious damage. That gun is not a deterrent. You're frankly speaking out your cornhole. Equating 550 foot lbs. of energy to "greater than several rifle calibers" because you're shooting 12 weaker projectiles shows an unbelievably weak grasp of basic physics. By that logic, if you were to fire 1000 marshmallows at him it would likewise be deadlier than a real deal .308.

I really don't get why you come on here and so staunchly stick to your position. Why bother posting at all? You've clearly decided to buy the gun and believe it will serve as your Excalibur for home defense purposes, so just go out and get it. Coming on here again and again and again and being told you're wrong by many people with more experience than you doesn't seem to make an ounce of difference. So just go do what you want to do. Unless you're mega trolling here over a very long time span :)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 11:22 pm
Posts: 1826
Location: Hayward, Cali
When it comes to experience, i defer to you guys of course and your point hasnt been lost on me that firearms are better than home defense, but what i was trying to rise with my admitantly borderline bs 550 foot lbs is that killing an intruder may not be the only way to deter one? I dont know, getting hit with 1/4 energy of energy of 9mm probably hurts like a bitch. With the gun sounding a lot like a real firearm (and in the dark the silhouette would be very similar) would an intruder be be able to say that they werent just shot with a firearm? I dont know this is all just conjecture, and like you said im talking out of my ass. :D I need to get back to working on my portfolio. Arrghh work work work :D

EDIT : i think my original bb gun was based on the p226! That's the one! Lots of fun to play with!

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