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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:29 am 
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I think the better question is what performance could be gained by necking down a 9x19mm Luger to a 6.35x19mm Rape Machine.

Could easily get 2,000 fps out of a <50grn projectile out of a pistol length barrel.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:07 pm 
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Dermann, you certainly have a point, here and i dont think you can find an air rifle out there that can outperform the average firearm, however i think you are making this a little more complicated than it really is. Pepper spray is hardly deadly and it stops most people. Why? because it hurts like a bitch im guessing. ;) Pepper spray has to be used at relatively short ranges and you do run the risk of nailing yourself so i would argue that this isnt the best way to g. If you dish out that much pain, i think i dont know if any amount drugs will allow them to shrug off it, especially like i said, if you hit said intruder with half a dozen pellets in the leg. I dont think they will be able to get away. Point, is i really doubt you need to kill an intruder to stop them. It's like the armys new ads thing they unveiled awhile ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmuyLIrSjxI

Point is you dont necessarily need deadly force to deter an attacker. Even so, a 25 cal pcp rifle delivers lethal force i would argue (if not as letal as a firemarm granted.) I dont know why they use 4 layers of denim. But lets say that for some reason you intruder decides to wear a few pairs of pants lol. And even a low power bb goes through denim. That kodiak pellet went through 9 inches of ballistic gel dude. If spell a very bad day for an intruder i dont know what does. Even some of those lighter ones would stop an intruder, especially when you fire like half a dozen of them. I don't know about you but if i hear something going on at night my first step will be to usually turn the light on and this thing is damn near impossible to tell from the real thing. Plus, 25 cal pellets get quite a bit heavier than the kodiak. There are 43 grains
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Eun_Jin_2 ... d_83ct/725

But this is all academic and i dont even know if i have the heart to shoot an intruder. If it's just someone there to take my tv, i would just flip on the light and tada, gun thats impossible to tell from the real thing. If they are there just to steal shit, i dont think they are really going to want to deal with someone that is armed.
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AFAIK, most robberies happen during the day and most of the time the perps aren't armed and even if they are this thing looks flat out mean. You're one flip of the light switch away from confronting the perp with something that looks like an assault rifle.. Even the cops couldnt tell the difference between the gun i own (the mk117 which is all plastic and a real firearm) Even if they aren't deterred by the sight a few shots with this would almost certainly put them out of commission. So would i feel comfortable going up against someone who had a knife or a baseball bat or something and was coming through my window? You bet. From, a few feet away this will be devastating especially with those 43 grain pellets.
http://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/ne ... rglary.php

Might be legally obligated to do so but crossman says their mk117 is a deadly weapon although this is probably stretching things and it goes without saying that there is no way that i would use a pump gun for home defense LOL. And in texas, you have a law that says that you can shoot someone no questions asked if they enter your home. Cali isnt exactly canada where you can have to say sorry to an intruder for not handing your wallet over, but there are still much more legal bullshit that comes into play then in texas and airguns often serve as a grey area here which might work out in your favor more often than not.

I will defenitely be sure to test this thing when it arrives!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:03 pm 
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derman, I'm guessing it would be similar to the 7.62 tokarev then. I was reading a while ago of a guy who was handloading sabots for that and had them coming out hot and fast. If you could go over ~2000 fps then you have hydrostatik shock as well ( unless that requires some extra mass, I'm not sure ). Anyways the wounding capability in that regard would outstrip other pistol bullets, you'd probably get over penetration ( AKA Asi on sunday night ) frequently...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:36 pm 
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Its just not the same.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:05 am 
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Pepper spray is not effective because it causes pain, it's effective because it stops an aggressor by inhibiting their eyesight.

Pain is subjective and can be blocked out with a great deal of adrenaline or in some cases drugs.

The Mosin-Nagant isn't an average firearm, it's a bottom of the barrel holdover that's 114 years old. There are far deadlier firearms out there.

The 12 inches of penetration against ballistics gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim is a test that has been standardized by the FBI (for roughly 30-40 years now) to help replicate the terminal ballistics (what happens to a bullet when it hits someone) against a clothed human being.

No, most people aren't over 12" thick, however, that distance helps compensate for the complex composition of the human body, including everything from skin to bone.

12" of penetration is the _bare_ minimum required to reach vital organs in clothed, adult humans.

You would let someone take your TV without a fight because you haven't had to work for it. I'll be damned if somebody runs off with one of the spare hard drives I have sitting on my desk without getting a few .45 caliber slugs in the back. It's my shit and I earned it, fuck anyone trying to deprive me of it.

You still don't understand how terminal ballistics work. Go to this link, input the various weights (in grains) of the projectiles and their velocities (in feet per second) and then compare the resulting energy (in foot-pounds) against cartridges that are well known to be effective, like the 9mm Luger, .45 ACP or even .22 LR. There's a huge discrepancy between the muzzle energy of .25 caliber pellets and even a .22 LR subsonic load.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bulle ... energy.php

New York has it worse off than California. CA still has a castle doctrine, even if it's limited. And remember, dead men tell no tales.

Lastly, any time a non-weapon gets used as a weapon it is treated as such. Sure it might be legal to carry a pellet rifle that resembles a real firearm around, but the instant you shoot someone with it, it's treated as if it were a deadly weapon. Same thing with blackpowder firearms. They're not considered firearms by the ATF and most states, but the instant you use it as one, it's legally treated as a weapon.

Fuck the pellet gun, get a black powder revolver. They're like $300 (for the nice ones) and they even produce terminal ballistics comparable to some modern cartridges (like .38 Special or thereabout).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:33 am 
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Buddy ive had to work extremely hard for everything I have. I just wouldn't want to kill someone over a tv.. Ive seen videos of marines getting hit with oc spray and it , i eat super spicy things for fun and i can only imagine what getting sprayed with oc feels like.. probably like satan pissed in your eye or something. What about kicking someone in the nuts? Its hardly deadly. Rubber bullets? Hardly lethal either. Bean bag rounds? Hardly lethal either but they look pretty nasty.

I understand what you are saying about terminal ballistics and you certainly have a good point and an air gun certainly is not as deadly as a firearm but even if a pellet only gets 9 inches that would still probably take someone out of action, i mean 9 inches is quite bit. There might be drugs involved and if it really comes down to that and they present a threat to you (and not just want your shit), you can shoot them in the legs. A 43 grain pellet at 700 fps has around 40% a 22 lr which may not sound like much but that 22lr will actually probably pass right through the intruder. Once you are getting 12 inches, that would be kind of a given i would think. But then again i could be wrong. Its still a whole lot of energy. I wouldnt even want to get hit with the 2 foot lbs that came out of my old co2 gun. Unless you are getting robbed by fat tony or something 9 inches is quite a bit. Ron Jeremy would agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_S5e4_PU-s

Jesus, look at the entry hole on the first round. I have a hard time seeing an intruder just getting hit by that and going eh. Especially half a dozen that i could squeeze off. I doubt an intruder would be able to tell the difference between it and the real thing and there is no way that they would think that taking my tv is worth going up against what is in their mind an assault rifle. Sure if they are on drugs that might not be the case but drugs are hardly known to make one billy badass and good luck to said intruder trying to get into a locked apartment when on drugs. . And even if they manage to get inside, drugs turn you into such an coordinated dumbass that i would probably just be able to knock them out with the back of it. We are talking about a 4.5 pound metal gun here. I have never done drugs but nothing that im reading about commonly used drugs really suggests that they would make an intruder a force to be reckoned with.

Black powder pistol looks fucking awesome to shoot, but i think another important factor here is that i will be most likely be living with room mates and i dont want to freak anyone out. Firearms may not be allowed as per the contract. If they are however, i definitely, do want to get my hands on something like that but i would really prefer that i get to know my room mates van them likewise before diving into firearms. I've always really wanted to mess around with some lever action guns. The marin and winchester ones that i saw on hickock's videos looked awesome. Probably pretty hard to find but i might be mistaken. That .45 - 70 prob kicks like a mule though.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:45 am 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
I understand what you are saying about terminal ballistics and you certainly have a good point and an air gun certainly is not as deadly as a firearm but even if a pellet only gets 9 inches that would still probably take someone out of action, i mean 9 inches is quite bit. There might be drugs involved and if it really comes down to that and they present a threat to you (and not just want your shit), you can shoot them in the legs. A 43 grain pellet at 700 fps has around 40% a 22 lr which may not sound like much but that 22lr will actually probably pass right through the intruder. Once you are getting 12 inches, that would be kind of a given i would think. But then again i could be wrong. Its still a whole lot of energy. I wouldnt even want to get hit with the 2 foot lbs that came out of my old co2 gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_S5e4_PU-s


Please see:

DerMann wrote:
The 12 inches of penetration against ballistics gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim is a test that has been standardized by the FBI (for roughly 30-40 years now) to help replicate the terminal ballistics (what happens to a bullet when it hits someone) against a clothed human being.

No, most people aren't over 12" thick, however, that distance helps compensate for the complex composition of the human body, including everything from skin to bone.


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I literally just explained that shit. 12" of gel is meant to replace the various densities and compositions of the human body.

No you don't have to shoot through 12" of human in order to get lethal wounds. However, a projectile must reliably penetrate 4 layers of denim and 12" of ballistics gelatin to be considered effective in real world applications.

Nine inches of penetration ain't shit and will never be shit - neither is anything below 100 ft/lbs of muzzle energy (almost double what most .25 caliber pellets clock in at).

I keep trying to explain this to you with words and even videos, but you cannot grasp it.

It takes something like 20 ft/lbs of energy to break skin. 2 ft/lbs is less energy than a paintball gun running CO2 on a cold day.

Yes, getting shot by BBs hurts. So does being whipped by a wet towel or stepping on Legos.

Clay is not a valid medium for testing terminal ballistics as it does nothing to simulate human tissue.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:10 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNWsflgn8JU

That pistols in the video are most definitely not 20 foot lb/lbs. It's more along the lines of two. In fact it's exactly two. Paintballs are squishy, they are meant to dissipate most of their energy on impact. Metal bb's not so much. Steve o shot himself with a bb gun awhile back. None of the rounds bounced off dude. And it was a CO2 pistol, just like that wimpy one that i used to shoot a few years back. Typically top out at around 400 fps. It's not like stepping on a lego block. You would have to go to the er if you even got hit by such a co2 gun. While i doubt a measly 2 foot/lbs would do much to stop a bad guy who is intent on hurting it shows that these things may not be as weak as you think they are. But hey, im full of crap right? Well you can pick up a cheap co2 gun from walmart for around $40-50. It cant shoot through a board of wood or anything but trust me it is alot of fun. Anyway, next time you have a problem with pests or something (crows?) use that instead of your mosin. I think you will be surprised.


Im not disputing that that the FBI's 12 inch thing is valid, im simply saying that having a projectile stuck 9 inches in you (the kodiak pellet in the video you posted did that basically) would hurt so much i really doubt you would want to continue fucking with someone and risk getting hit again. And there are heavier pellets like i said. In your video they never tested the heaviest of the 25 cal ones which go up to 43 grains, those would probably have a bit less range but would almost undoubtedly satisfy the 12 inches with denim thing. But hey im full of crap right? Someone you know might own a pcp rifle. See if you can test said 43 grain pellets since i dont really have the money to do this at the moment. They are only $8 on pyramid air
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/Eun_Jin_2 ... d_83ct/725

What exactly are these real world applications? Is the fbi saying it must do that in order to pass through an intruder? I don't want to sound like im splitting hairs, but that bean bag from jackass merely left a bruise and it looked like it would stop an intruder. Knoxxville was pretty destroyed and those guys zap themselves with tasers for fun. :D So you say you dont need 12 inches to get lethal wounds but you also say 9 inches aint shit so a lethal wound aint shit? Are you saying a lethal wound wouldn't stop someone? I don't want to sound tongue in cheek or anything but im a little lost here. Call me crazy, but I don't think stopping an intruder requires delvering lethal force (there are afterall tons of of less than lethal things that law enforcement uses.) The army's microwave ray gun thing has zero foot/lbs of energy but it stops people cause it causes a lot of pain. Yes, it has nothing to do with projectiles, but it prob stings like a bitch.

Air guns =/= firearms certainly but that doesnt necessarily mean that getting hit by one is like stepping on a lego. In fact, i almost certainly suspect that it is quite a bit more debilitating than most of the less than lethal things that are out there.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:25 pm 
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Please re-read this again.

DerMann wrote:
Please see:

DerMann wrote:
The 12 inches of penetration against ballistics gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim is a test that has been standardized by the FBI (for roughly 30-40 years now) to help replicate the terminal ballistics (what happens to a bullet when it hits someone) against a clothed human being.

No, most people aren't over 12" thick, however, that distance helps compensate for the complex composition of the human body, including everything from skin to bone.


Image

I literally just explained that shit. 12" of gel is meant to replace the various densities and compositions of the human body.

No you don't have to shoot through 12" of human in order to get lethal wounds. However, a projectile must reliably penetrate 4 layers of denim and 12" of ballistics gelatin to be considered effective in real world applications.

Nine inches of penetration ain't shit and will never be shit - neither is anything below 100 ft/lbs of muzzle energy (almost double what most .25 caliber pellets clock in at).


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12" penetration in gel does not equal to 12" of penetration on a human - it's just to show that a projectile can penetrate through the skin, fat, muscle, bones and ultimately the organs of the human body.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:51 pm 
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Ok well thats where those 43 grain pellets come in! The 30 grain ones got pretty close and when you move up by almost 50% i dont think there is much doubt whether you are talking lethal force. I think we are splitting hairs here. Even if the projectiles doesnt get that perfect 12 inches i doubt it would feel good. Lets you only get 9 inches in the gel with a lighter pellet you're still talking about something that is pretty painful and when you can dish out that at probably 5 rounds per seconds, that makes you a force to be reckoned with imo. Besides, i don think the psycological aspect here should be overlooked. Given the exact replica nature of the sig's newest offerings. it would be very hard for the perp to tell that they had no in fact been hit with a real firearm. I mean, the co2 version probably doesnt have quit the power as it's only .177 and .22 but the pcp one would probably present an almost indistinguishable resemblance to the real thing.

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Last edited by #//neostyles.CD on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:58 pm 
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Neo, honestly, why are you fighting this- I just don't understand. You've made up your mind so just get the thing. Why does convincing people on here (an impossible task, seriously) seem to hold such importance for you? You're coming back again and again to fight a fight that stands no chance of victory. Get the gun, enjoy it, move along. I don't get it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:45 pm 
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I'm done.

I hope you never have to use your replica to dissuade home invaders from taking your things or doing you bodily harm. Might as well just get an app on your phone that plays the sound of a shotgun being pumped and hope no one ever calls your bluff.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:18 am 
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I was beginning to think that this thing is kind of pointless. Anyway, some more pics. God it looks. Sexy. I want to do sexual things to it. Its like an mp5 and a sig 556 had a baby!
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No more fake toylike molded in selector switches and mag releases! Huzzah!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Ahh yes, the fine point in stupidity where one does not even realize their own incompetence, and is emboldened by that lack of awareness.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:35 am 
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CO2 versions are out.
http://www.airgundepot.com/sig-sauer-mpx-air-rifle.html

.177 version shoots at 750 fps and the .22 version does around 600 fps but C02 im looking for something a little more powerful, so waiting for the pcp version in 25 cal. Man it's gonna be nice owning something all metal! No silly molded in switches! Air guns i think have had one major downside over firearms for me and that is that you either get to choose from something that looks badass or something that is decent for long range shooting. I mean, most of the 1000+ fps options all look like pretty standard fare and break barrel kind of sucks because you have to shoot one by one. Ive shot break barrels before and while they pack some fairly decent power, having to load the shots one by one is kind of vaguely like the scene from any civil war movie where the new recruit is trying to load their musket (and with all the force needed to cock it after awhile you wont be really getting off shots any faster lol.)

Sure there are some magazine fed options but most of them are pretty much limited to pistols. Very few rifles that pack any sort of real power until now. Yeeeeee so excited to get my hands on this :D Ive wanted something that has all the bells and whistles of a real firearm but without the legal baggage. Which is not to say that i dont want to own a firearm in time, but i think this will be a nice starting out option to go with as im not sure how much spare money i will have after rent is paid. I like the 10/22 as it seems like a nice option for plinking.

I mean, if you are sensing a little hesitation i wont lie. But all my life ive been told that even a paintball gun is bad...So i think that its something that im gonna have to work my way up to. You guys had no idea how jealous i was in 2006 when i stumbled across the boards and people were posting pictures of guns that they got for christmas. :D


EDIT: Looks like adjustable stocks arent allowed in california as well as magazines bigger than 10 rounds... and i want to get me some of dat high capacity action. :D With careful shot placement you could make a 50 round magazine last 5 minutes probably. The CA legal rifles with the tiny magazines that just barely poke out look at a tad bit awkward imo. Not being allowed to have a rifle that has an adjustable stock is kind of a bummer too because this is something that i find i like to choose. I mean, part of the problem with air guns up until this point is that you have the molded in things. With CA firearms laws you are limited to a stock that is essentially somewhat along the same lines.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:06 am 
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:24 am 
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