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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Bjorn wrote:
By the time this future suit gets implimented our army will be almost completely mechanized. Thats what made me so mad about BF2142! Infantry won't exist as our major attack force in the next 100 years. Just that they didn't have robotics play a major part ruined that for me its just not realistic grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. (sorry)


The problem is that robots won't be taking over the battlefield. While areas like UCAVs will develop, you still aren't able to replace a rifleman. Someone with a gun has to be able to aim, prioritize targets, use tactics, and distingish between friend and foe. Humans have trouble doing that, which means it'd be damn near impossible for machines. The AI that would be required for such a machine... it'd be the most complicated ever to be made.

We're talking Data from Star Trek level comprehending - and the best we have is Honda's ASIMO, which can do the remarkable task of walk up stairs all by himself.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:19 pm 
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Sturmwehr wrote:

The problem is that robots won't be taking over the battlefield. While areas like UCAVs will develop, you still aren't able to replace a rifleman. Someone with a gun has to be able to aim, prioritize targets, use tactics, and distingish between friend and foe. Humans have trouble doing that, which means it'd be damn near impossible for machines. The AI that would be required for such a machine... it'd be the most complicated ever to be made.

We're talking Data from Star Trek level comprehending - and the best we have is Honda's ASIMO, which can do the remarkable task of walk up stairs all by himself.


I've seen some pretty damn advanced robots in MIT, ones that react to a situation by just examining someones face/mannerisms/vocal characteristics. Robots that can hold up conversations with a younge child(might not sound impressive but when you think about it...). Well what I'm getting at is that the future is now. To say that we won't have a Data level robot in 100 years is quite unprobable. MIT/lincoln labs might have some stuff showcased on thier website, check it out.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:13 am 
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Bjorn wrote:
I've seen some pretty damn advanced robots in MIT, ones that react to a situation by just examining someones face/mannerisms/vocal characteristics.


There are no "pretty damn advanced robots." Mind you, voice/face recognition programs have existed since the '80s. The robots you're speaking of are programmed with specific, usually singular, tasks. ASIMO is currently the most recognized advanced robot right now. Honda engineers are tinkering with him recognizing commands. Recently, on the National Geographic channel, they showed his - the engineer said "Shake my hand, ASIMO," and after a few moments, it raised it's hand to shake with. Next, the engineer told ASIMO to move to where he was pointing, several times ASIMO stated "I do not comprehend your request," and then finally decided to shake hands with the engineer. They currently are working on ASIMO doing basic decision making with using the most efficient method possible for the task - the task he was faced with? Picking up a bottle.

Now, if we can't even get a robot to move where we point in a reliable fashion... the future of robotics ain't looking too pretty. Yes, they will get more advanced. Enough so to replace soldiers? Not within this century.

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Robots that can hold up conversations with a younge child(might not sound impressive but when you think about it...). Well what I'm getting at is that the future is now. To say that we won't have a Data level robot in 100 years is quite unprobable.


The thing is, a robot can only do what it's PROGRAMMED to do. Robots aren't cabable of tactical decision making. The best we could do is say, "If this happens, respond this way, Mr. Robot." If a situation they weren't programmed for arises, they'd be effectively walking paper weights.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:15 am 
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Sturmwehr wrote:
ASIMO is currently the most recognized advanced robot right now. Honda engineers are tinkering with him recognizing commands. Recently, on the National Geographic channel, they showed his - the engineer said "Shake my hand, ASIMO," and after a few moments, it raised it's hand to shake with. Next, the engineer told ASIMO to move to where he was pointing, several times ASIMO stated "I do not comprehend your request," and then finally decided to shake hands with the engineer. They currently are working on ASIMO doing basic decision making with using the most efficient method possible for the task - the task he was faced with? Picking up a bottle.


Maybe you should talk to they guys at MIT and CALTECH


http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/humanoid-robotics-group/cog/

http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/humanoid-robotics-group/kismet/kismet.html

Both of these came out years before ASIMO although the AI is less practical than ASIMO which is essentially a butler. It is far more advanced. In fact from what I've seen these robots evolve into today is startling. MIT is a government contracter for robotics so a lot of thier cutting edge stuff they can't release but I think these two examples may give you a glimpse into what modern AI is, which is lightyears ahead of static commands. These robots actually learn, they are dynamic.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:33 am 
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Bjorn wrote:
Both of these came out years before ASIMO although the AI is less practical than ASIMO which is essentially a butler. It is far more advanced.


Uh, no. Walking up stairs is multiple times more complicated than reading a face. As I said before, face and voice recognition software has existed since the 1980's, and that's how those robots identify and "react."

All the reactions and identifications done by those robots are programmed.

The most impressive "learning" display I've seen with a robot was on the same program I previously mentioned - a man would hold up an object, and say the name of it to the robot, and through photo recognition, it would identify it.... Guess what, they're planning to put the same system in Wal-Mart to speed up self-check out.

Not impressive. At all.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:42 am 
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I am no expert but the way I see it is, unless there is some huge breakthrough or something of that nature I doubt robots will be getting as advanced as movies would like us to believe anytime soon. There are a ton of animals behind adult chimps in intelligence that are far more perceptive than any robot so far. Maybe they have a step above a mentally disabled slug?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:41 am 
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Sturmwehr wrote:

Walking up stairs is multiple times more complicated than reading a face.



...

Guess the whole dynamic learning (beyond visual/audio recognition) AI can't compare to something I can find in a $300.00 robotics kit.


Last edited by Bjorn on Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:18 pm 
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Something just dawned on me. How does one go to the bathroom while wearing one of those Trojan suits? Wouldn't time itself be a factor? Think about it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:24 pm 
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Sasquatch wrote:
Something just dawned on me. How does one go to the bathroom while wearing one of those Trojan suits? Wouldn't time itself be a factor? Think about it.


Most likely would have a self contained system, like that of Space suits. Only thing about that is that it probably take a good 10minutes minimum to put all that crap so so taking it off would be annoying if your waste bag were full. But if it saves lives eh.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:16 pm 
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Bjorn wrote:
Guess the whole dynamic learning (beyond visual/audio recognition) AI


That's just it, that's all that's being done right now. They are "learning," but only as much as we can program them to do.

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can't compare to something I can find in a $300.00 robotics kit.


Robo-sapian toys don't count. I had a toy Godzilla that could "walk" down stairs, too. Doesn't mean it's as advanced as ASIMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:21 pm 
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well .. you go to the bathroom in one of those by changing the clock time .. and a robot walking up stairs is more complicated, the human face is quite easy to read for emotions. walking up stairs is rather hard if you think about it, to ballance yourself as you assend or dessend stairs, robots need many gyros and stabalizational systems to achieve walking , even morso for stairs.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Colt .45 Killer wrote:
well .. you go to the bathroom in one of those by changing the clock time .. and a robot walking up stairs is more complicated, the human face is quite easy to read for emotions. walking up stairs is rather hard if you think about it, to ballance yourself as you assend or dessend stairs, robots need many gyros and stabalizational systems to achieve walking , even morso for stairs.


Correct. It took, IIRC, years for the Honda engineers to get ASIMO to balance himself correctly.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:53 pm 
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Sturmwehr wrote:
Bjorn wrote:
Guess the whole dynamic learning (beyond visual/audio recognition) AI


That's just it, that's all that's being done right now. They are "learning," but only as much as we can program them to do.

Quote:
can't compare to something I can find in a $300.00 robotics kit.


Robo-sapian toys don't count. I had a toy Godzilla that could "walk" down stairs, too. Doesn't mean it's as advanced as ASIMO.


No i'm talking about robotics kits that you build/program yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:19 pm 
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well theres a difference between smaller robots and big human sized robots like asimo, the thing about asimo is that hes tall enough he can easily fall over, most of the home brew robots use wheels or are very lowto the ground and cannot tip, therefore making stair climbing easy..

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:09 am 
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Colt .45 Killer wrote:
well theres a difference between smaller robots and big human sized robots like asimo, the thing about asimo is that hes tall enough he can easily fall over, most of the home brew robots use wheels or are very lowto the ground and cannot tip, therefore making stair climbing easy..


Have you ever programed anything? C++, Visual Basic, hell even html. I don't think you understand how complex a LEARNING/DYNAMIC Ai truly is. Walking up stairs for a tall robot consists nothing more than having the program monitor a few sensors to make it stay up-right and the ASMIO can only walk up stairs withing a very small margin of what it was designed for. The ASMIO may be a very complex piece of machinery but in no way can its AI touch cutting edge AI technology.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:27 am 
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Bjorn wrote:
Have you ever programed anything? C++, Visual Basic, hell even html. I don't think you understand how complex a LEARNING/DYNAMIC Ai truly is.


It's an off-shoot of facial recognition software. All it does is instead of being programmed for individual faces and results, it is "taught." And, in a way, it's still programmed... it has to be told whether the results are right or wrong in order to further identify.

As I said, the same technology is going to be used in Wal-Mart self-checkout stations, where a camera will view what you put down on the counter, and it will be able to differentiate an apple from a orange over time.

Honestly, it's not that impressive. Walking is difficult for even humans to learn (and, having had to learn to walk twice, I can contest to this), but even babies can tell when you're pissed at them.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:03 am 
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Sturmwehr wrote:
Bjorn wrote:
Have you ever programed anything? C++, Visual Basic, hell even html. I don't think you understand how complex a LEARNING/DYNAMIC Ai truly is.


It's an off-shoot of facial recognition software. All it does is instead of being programmed for individual faces and results, it is "taught." And, in a way, it's still programmed... it has to be told whether the results are right or wrong in order to further identify.

As I said, the same technology is going to be used in Wal-Mart self-checkout stations, where a camera will view what you put down on the counter, and it will be able to differentiate an apple from a orange over time.

Honestly, it's not that impressive. Walking is difficult for even humans to learn (and, having had to learn to walk twice, I can contest to this), but even babies can tell when you're pissed at them.


...I really think you arn't getting the point, it goes way beyond simple image recognition, the AI is dynamic meaning the robot actually can learn and apply knowlege. ASMIO's AI is nothing more than a set of intructions that allow it to walk up anything it "sees" as stairs in the newest 2005 showcase of the robot. It can hardly walk without help, for example if you put it in a normal house hold within minutes the robot would be either walking in circles or stuck.

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1303/index.html

Watch this episode of Scientific American.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:04 am 
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and this http://www.pbs.org/saf/1510/video/watchonline.htm


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Bjorn wrote:
...I really think you arn't getting the point, it goes way beyond simple image recognition, the AI is dynamic meaning the robot actually can learn and apply knowlege.


Yes, through trial and error. As I said, the same software is being used for checkout counters now.

The AI isn't some HAL 9000 "YOU ARE SAD BECAUSE YOUR FATHER SEXUALLY ABUSED YOU..." type robot. It puts digital pointers on hard points on the face, and depending on the orientation, it will determine what the emotion is. It isn't always right, either. And, YES, it is stemmed from the facial recognition software.

There is no learning, only trial and error. When I setup a TiVo, I go through 500 yes or no recommendations, and eventually the damn thing learns what I want through sheer trial and error over time. Same thing with this robot, if it gets it wrong, it's told so and its programming puts either more stringent limits or higher requirements for facial patterns.

It's. That. Simple. It isn't dynamic. It's novel, I'll give you that... but nothing dynamic.

Quote:
ASMIO's AI is nothing more than a set of intructions that allow it to walk up anything it "sees" as stairs in the newest 2005 showcase of the robot. It can hardly walk without help, for example if you put it in a normal house hold within minutes the robot would be either walking in circles or stuck.


ASIMO can indeed walk without help, both downstairs and upstairs. Also, I think you prove your point - it's much more difficult to walk on stairs than have a facial recognition program and a digital camera scan facial hardpoints and "determine" what emotion it is. I'd also like to see the toy robots of your kits weigh several dozen pounds and be as tall as a small child... and then walk up stairs. Good luck.

And, in fact, ASIMO can now pick up objects.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:18 am 
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Well the guy went broke and is no longer making it.....no one bought it....but if you have 15k you can buy it off of ebay :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Trojan-full-bod ... dZViewItem

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