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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Keep it on topic please.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:17 am 
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Feanaro wrote:
DerMann wrote:
I would rather have a 100% chance of making a wound that size


You don't have that chance though. The likelyhood of a 7.62x51 round tumbling in a torso shot is about equal with 5.56x45's chances of fragmenting (within its velocity range). 8mm Lebel probably has a lower chance of doing so. Light, high velocity rounds tend to tumble faster than their heavier, slower counterparts.


A decently manufactured 5.56x45 round (say, M855 or M193 specs) will consistantly fragment above speeds of 2700 FPS at impact. IMO, the wounding potential of the 5.56x45 is MUCH more dramatic and devastating. Yes, the 7.62x51 puts out more joules, but having 10-30 pieces of a fragmented bullet in your chest is one sure way for internal bleeding of the most profound nature.

If I had to absolutely get shot by either 7.62x51 or 5.56x45... I'd choose 7.62.

DerMann wrote:
If you read my post, you'd have noticed that I said that both the 7.62NATO and the 5.56NATO (fragmenting) make about the same size wound.


Uh, no.

While the 7.62x51 makes a much larger temporary cavity caused by the displaced tissue, the permanent cavity of the 5.56x45 impact is about 1.5x as large as the 7.62x51. And, although both are capable of killing you, larger permanent cavities generally equal more tissue, muscle, and organ damage and the possibility of shock, hemorrhaging and other nasty effects on the body.

Now, THAT SAID, don't mistake me - I'm not saying 5.56x45 is more powerful or anything of the sort. In the energy transfer department, 7.62x51 wins by several multitudes... HOWEVER... the terminal ballistics that are possible with the 5.56x45 cartridge are, IMO, superior.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:12 am 
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i think the switch was from smokless to stick powder


Stick powder IS smokeless powder. One kind, anyways.

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IMO, the wounding potential of the 5.56x45 is MUCH more dramatic and devastating


Have to disagree. The wounding potential of 7.62x51 is greater than 5.56mm. Thin the copper plating out a little, especially at the cannelure, and it will fragment like a 5.56 round. With a heavier, wider bullet.

Image

This is all about FMJs, of course. A soft or hollow point 7.62 bullet would turn an even greater amount of someone's person into bloody goop. The same for 5.56mm, possibly with more a little violence if loaded hot. Penetration wouldn't be as good.

Quote:
Now, THAT SAID, don't mistake me - I'm not saying 5.56x45 is more powerful or anything of the sort. In the energy transfer department, 7.62x51 wins by several multitudes... HOWEVER... the terminal ballistics that are possible with the 5.56x45 cartridge are, IMO, superior.


If the 5.56mm round causes more tissue damage, I'd call it the more powerful round for the intended purpose(rapid incapacitation of animal life).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:53 am 
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hey thanks Feanaro for bring that up i remember now it was from ball powder to stick powder only know that because i was sick one day and watched the history channel all day because i don't have a remote

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:04 am 
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darkdragon wrote:
hey thanks Feanaro for bring that up i remember now it was from ball powder to stick powder only know that because i was sick one day and watched the history channel all day because i don't have a remote


Welcome, mate. I don't remember if it was stick to ball or ball to stick but you've got the jist of it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:30 am 
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Feanaro wrote:

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IMO, the wounding potential of the 5.56x45 is MUCH more dramatic and devastating


Have to disagree. The wounding potential of 7.62x51 is greater than 5.56mm. Thin the copper plating out a little, especially at the cannelure, and it will fragment like a 5.56 round. With a heavier, wider bullet.

Image

This is all about FMJs, of course. A soft or hollow point 7.62 bullet would turn an even greater amount of someone's person into bloody goop. The same for 5.56mm, possibly with more a little violence if loaded hot. Penetration wouldn't be as good.

Quote:
Now, THAT SAID, don't mistake me - I'm not saying 5.56x45 is more powerful or anything of the sort. In the energy transfer department, 7.62x51 wins by several multitudes... HOWEVER... the terminal ballistics that are possible with the 5.56x45 cartridge are, IMO, superior.


If the 5.56mm round causes more tissue damage, I'd call it the more powerful round for the intended purpose(rapid incapacitation of animal life).



as generally issued 5.56 causes more internal tissue damage due to fragmentation, IF it impacts above a certain velocity, but absolutely the 7.62x51 has more wounding potential and it doesnt require as "narrow" circumstances to produce those results.


the whole point of 5.56 is a smaller lighter, lower recoil round that causes as near as possible to the damage that the larger .30 caliber rounds cause, and 5.56 does that well.


heres some wound profiles that illustrate the difference.

first is a common 5.56 wound profile.

as you can see it will pass thorugh a couple of inches of flesh and then cause a horrific internal wound cavity and tissue damage.

notice however the velocity, that is over 3000FPS, the higher the velocity the higher the fragmentation.

Image


now take a look at the 7.62x51 wound profile.

as you can see i passes through the body mostly straight with a little tumbling, the velocity is just under 3000FPS, 7.62 requires higher velocities to fragment, this is the common configuration atleast.



Image




so ultimately the 7.62 is a better long range round, has better penetration and energy, and in a wide array of circumstances it is the most lethal.

the 5.56 however in its designed specific narrow use is extremely effective, however past a certain range the velocity drops and so does fragmentation, up close the round too is not able to properly stabilize and achieve proper fragmentation, and if shot out of a shorter barrel gun like the M4 the velocity is lower, so again the fragmentation and effectiveness drops.


in the end what this means is the 5.56 makes a great mid range battle round for the average soldier, and it has low recoil plus you can carry 3 times as much as you can carry 7.62x51.

each round has its place and its pros and cons.

the 5.56 just makes more sense for the average modern soldier in the field.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:31 am 
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Feanaro wrote:
Have to disagree. The wounding potential of 7.62x51 is greater than 5.56mm. Thin the copper plating out a little, especially at the cannelure, and it will fragment like a 5.56 round. With a heavier, wider bullet.


I think the pictures you posted before show it as it is... the 5.56x45 is much more likely to fragment, and fragmentation is much more likely to wound more. As I said, temporary cavities are just displacement... permanent cavities bleed out. That's what you want.

Quote:
If the 5.56mm round causes more tissue damage, I'd call it the more powerful round for the intended purpose(rapid incapacitation of animal life).


5.56x45 can be used for varmiting, but it's far from a varmit cartridge... even wild boar are no match for 5.56x45, let alone woodchucks and other varmit cong.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:05 pm 
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Sturmwehr wrote:
I think the pictures you posted before show it as it is... the 5.56x45 is much more likely to fragment, and fragmentation is much more likely to wound more. As I said, temporary cavities are just displacement... permanent cavities bleed out. That's what you want.


As it stands, 5.56mm causes more tissue damage than 7.62 NATO, as long as it fragments. But the .30 caliber bullet could fragment with a small change in the way they are manufactured. Doesn't really matter though, 5.56mm is lighter, easier on the shoulder, and widely available.

Quote:
5.56x45 can be used for varmiting, but it's far from a varmit cartridge... even wild boar are no match for 5.56x45, let alone woodchucks and other varmit cong.


I wasn't talking about varmints. Humans are Animals 1.5. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:24 pm 
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Chaunsey wrote:

Image


^^^ Thats a soft point





Image

^^^ Thats FMJ


Both are different bullet types, the military only allows FMJ, so post a pic of 5.56 in FMJ for a true comparison. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Also, the drawings are not to scale. 5 Inches on the first is a bigger size in the picture than on the second :roll:


Der already pointed it out a while back

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:48 pm 
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Feanaro wrote:
As it stands, 5.56mm causes more tissue damage than 7.62 NATO, as long as it fragments. But the .30 caliber bullet could fragment with a small change in the way they are manufactured.


That is true.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about varmints. Humans are Animals 1.5. :wink:


My mistake, I misunderstood you.

Spiffinz wrote:
Also, the drawings are not to scale. 5 Inches on the first is a bigger size in the picture than on the second :roll:


Wow, really?

Doesn't matter, the measurements are still correct. Both are in centimeters. And, if you look, you'll see that while the significant wound channels of 7.62x51 start at about 17cm, the permanent cavity in 5.56x45 is starting to open up at about 8cm. That, simply put, means more tissue and organ damage.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:18 pm 
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Sturmwehr wrote:
That, simply put, means more tissue and organ damage.


Its a soft point of course it will fragment and cause more damage, but soft points and hollow points are illegal in warfare.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:43 pm 
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D_LaMz wrote:
Sturmwehr wrote:
That, simply put, means more tissue and organ damage.


Its a soft point of course it will fragment and cause more damage, but soft points and hollow points are illegal in warfare.


Uh, you should do your homework. M855 and M193 (THE ROUNDS THE MILITARY USES!!!) both fragment at speeds 0f 2700 FPS and above at impact. Hell, there's even partial fragmentation at 2600 FPS.

So, FMJs still fragment.

Also, had you looked at it, you would've seen that the round in the picture is actually an M855... and thus a FMJ.

M193 55gr
Image
Image

M855 62gr
Image
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:36 am 
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^^^ lol calm down, I just saw a grey tip, and forgot that M855 had green tips. :lol: I mostly use M193 and some Wolf ammo.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:48 pm 
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Since we are talking about ballistics now...How would the 5.45x39 do although smaller it has the tendancy to tumble alot more than the other rounds...atleast thats what I have been told and read. Any graphs :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:19 pm 
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Bigdaddy wrote:
Since we are talking about ballistics now...How would the 5.45x39 do although smaller it has the tendancy to tumble alot more than the other rounds...atleast thats what I have been told and read. Any graphs :D


Image


And, just for kicks... people wonder why I advocated .357 for self defense:
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:26 pm 
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hrmm .357 really isnt that impressive afterall... :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:52 pm 
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Colt .45 Killer wrote:
hrmm .357 really isnt that impressive afterall... :lol:


Really? Because if I could manufacture ammunition in any caliber that got that kind of expansion, I'd be a very wealthy man.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:37 am 
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well compared to the other assault rifle rounds, it leaves a fairly cleaner hole, little fragmentation and a straight path through.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:22 pm 
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Colt .45 Killer wrote:
well compared to the other assault rifle rounds, it leaves a fairly cleaner hole, little fragmentation and a straight path through.


No pistol caliber will ever match rifle rounds. Pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles.

However, consider this: the .357 Magnum is generally loaded with a bullet diameter of 9.09mm. Now, look at the photograph - the bullet expanded to 18mm. That's damn near TWICE THE SIZE in expansion, that's remarkable!


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