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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:19 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
Bigdaddy wrote:
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Insurgency is a great game but its quite annoying how literal the One shot kill system is in that game. I cant tell you how many times ive shot someones foot from under a car like 3 times to kill them, its just silly. A single ak47 round can indeed kill someone instantly but it would have to be an extremely lucky shot or and unlucky soldier for a one hit kill to happen with todays modern body armor imho. Plus from a balance standpoint the US team should have some sort of advantage to counter the terrorists unlimited respawn pool.
The tactics and the way the game handles are awesome but for me its a sometimes game :)


I agree about shooting someone in the foot 3 times to kill someone. But really if you think about it the 7.62 from the ak doesn't have a big problem of going through the standard issue Body armor. It all depends on the distance. Inside a house? Yeah it's going through. 300 meters away? It's going to have some trouble, but it will knock the soldier on their ass.

According to the wiki, interceptor (the current body armor that is being fielded by the military) has spaces for optional plates that can be inserted to stop 7.62x51. I think alliance can really do something cool here, like allowing players to choose what kind of plates they put in the available slots (click on part of the vest and it zooms in, allowing you to make a selection.) Repeat hits, however, might be an issue. It says that it was only able to stop 3 hits (probably twice that for the ak round.)

There are other body armors out there which are much better at taking repeat hits.. such as defend x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abd9bpvd ... ideo_title

I've used all of it. Had to run in it shoot in it everything. I know exactly how the plates work and have friends who have been shot while wearing the IBA does it help save lives? Yes it does but what you still didn't understand is the distance part of my post. If you bust in a house and there is a guy with an AK 10ft away your vest regardless of all the plates (really only 2) you will be seriously wounded or killed. The groin, armpits, and neck don't even have plates..it's just Kevlar. You have 2 plates ...your chest and your back that's it. If you knew how restrictive the vest is you would understand more plates only makes the soldier a slower Target.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Bigdaddy wrote:
I've used all of it. Had to run in it shoot in it everything. I know exactly how the plates work and have friends who have been shot while wearing the IBA does it help save lives? Yes it does but what you still didn't understand is the distance part of my post. If you bust in a house and there is a guy with an AK 10ft away your vest regardless of all the plates (really only 2) you will be seriously wounded or killed. The groin, armpits, and neck don't even have plates..it's just Kevlar. You have 2 plates ...your chest and your back that's it. If you knew how restrictive the vest is you would understand more plates only makes the soldier a slower Target.

More people need to play Starcraft.

That's the best way to understand the way armor works. Sure from a distance the Terran marines can stand up to some damage, but against zerglings or zealots up close, they just fall apart uselessly.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:36 pm 
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I've used all of it. Had to run in it shoot in it everything. I know exactly how the plates work and have friends who have been shot while wearing the IBA does it help save lives? Yes it does but what you still didn't understand is the distance part of my post. If you bust in a house and there is a guy with an AK 10ft away your vest regardless of all the plates (really only 2) you will be seriously wounded or killed. The groin, armpits, and neck don't even have plates..it's just Kevlar. You have 2 plates ...your chest and your back that's it. If you knew how restrictive the vest is you would understand more plates only makes the soldier a slower Target.

Army? Nice. What kinds of stuff did you get to use? Well, I don't want to get into this too much, but I dont think that interceptor is the best out there. I mean, sure, you can only fit so many plates, but it also matters what the plates are made of. In that video, defend x took 60 close range repeated hits with zero penetration.

From what I can see, the brass hasn't really made too much of an effort to find alternatives that are tougher. I mean, I found something called the IOTV, but it doesn't look like that much an improvement.

From the videos I've watched, it seems like close quarters engagements are very common and I having body armor that can't stop rounds in close quarters seems like a major liability. CQB seems like it happens atleast half the time. The fact that the interceptor doesn't even have "real" protection for several critical areas seems.. odd at the very least.

This seems like it would be much better
http://www.defenstech.com

Or maybe even level 5?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM7Q6hjdsN0

Sure, it would be more expensive, but I think we owe it to them, what with all the dangers.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:43 pm 
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#//neostyles.CD wrote:
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I've used all of it. Had to run in it shoot in it everything. I know exactly how the plates work and have friends who have been shot while wearing the IBA does it help save lives? Yes it does but what you still didn't understand is the distance part of my post. If you bust in a house and there is a guy with an AK 10ft away your vest regardless of all the plates (really only 2) you will be seriously wounded or killed. The groin, armpits, and neck don't even have plates..it's just Kevlar. You have 2 plates ...your chest and your back that's it. If you knew how restrictive the vest is you would understand more plates only makes the soldier a slower Target.

Army? Nice. What kinds of stuff did you get to use? Well, I don't want to get into this too much, but I dont think that interceptor is the best out there. I mean, sure, you can only fit so many plates, but it also matters what the plates are made of. In that video, defend x took 60 close range repeated hits with zero penetration.

From what I can see, the brass hasn't really made too much of an effort to find alternatives that are tougher. I mean, I found something called the IOTV, but it doesn't look like that much an improvement.

From the videos I've watched, it seems like close quarters engagements are very common and I having body armor that can't stop rounds in close quarters seems like a major liability. CQB seems like it happens atleast half the time. The fact that the interceptor doesn't even have "real" protection for several critical areas seems.. odd at the very least.

This seems like it would be much better
http://www.defenstech.com

Or maybe even level 5?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM7Q6hjdsN0

Sure, it would be more expensive, but I think we owe it to them, what with all the dangers.

Money. They would rather spend money on ridiculous projects instead of newer equipment for each soldier.


Also I agree with dermann about starcraft XD

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Also, I've hung around a bunch of ex-marines and army guys in my time at school. All them always tell the same story. There's a guy who gets his family to buy some sort of high end armor (one guy apparently had a full set of dragonscale sent to him), but if you wear anything else but the standard issue armor while deployed, and you get injured/killed in combat, your relatives will not be eligible to receive your rightful insurance payment.

This is hugely off topic, but i'm just backing up bigdaddy at this point.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:49 pm 
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DerMann wrote:
Also, I've hung around a bunch of ex-marines and army guys in my time at school. All them always tell the same story. There's a guy who gets his family to buy some sort of high end armor (one guy apparently had a full set of dragonscale sent to him), but if you wear anything else but the standard issue armor while deployed, and you get injured/killed in combat, your relatives will not be eligible to receive your rightful insurance payment.

This is hugely off topic, but i'm just backing up bigdaddy at this point.

I've heard the same thing actually lol. Idk if they would even let you wear it period. The army and marines are extremely picky about the equipment you use and that everyone is using the same. Although I could be wrong. I'm sure there has been a lax command that didn't care if you wore your own stuff lol. Only thing is...could he bring it back to the states? Plates and all?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:05 pm 
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AllianceEric wrote:
Bigdaddy wrote:
Spiffinz wrote:
Insurgency is a great game but its quite annoying how literal the One shot kill system is in that game. I cant tell you how many times ive shot someones foot from under a car like 3 times to kill them, its just silly. A single ak47 round can indeed kill someone instantly but it would have to be an extremely lucky shot or and unlucky soldier for a one hit kill to happen with todays modern body armor imho. Plus from a balance standpoint the US team should have some sort of advantage to counter the terrorists unlimited respawn pool.
The tactics and the way the game handles are awesome but for me its a sometimes game :)

I agree about shooting someone in the foot 3 times to kill someone. But really if you think about it the 7.62 from the ak doesn't have a big problem of going through the standard issue Body armor. It all depends on the distance. Inside a house? Yeah it's going through. 300 meters away? It's going to have some trouble, but it will knock the soldier on their ass.

One thing to keep in mind is that from a game's perspective, there's very little difference from being a casualty (seriously injured or dead) and actually dead. In the case of Alliance, we won't have wizard medics who wave a box at you and instantly make you completely healthy. The realistic alternative is then leaving you on the ground until a medic arrives and does some quick battlefield triage (enough to be moved). If this is successful you can be evacuated behind the front-lines for further medical treatment, and then possibly also air lifted to a hospital. Overall, it could multiple months (if you need a long recovery) before you can rejoin the fighting doesn't. Even as a best-case scenario, you'd probably be out of commission for 5-10 minutes, which is too long to make you wait so that you could continue fighting but still being somewhat injured.

Since the fully realistic options would suck and we don't want magical battlefield healing, there will many real-world, survivable injuries that will "kill" you in Alliance. Not because you would instantly die in real life, but because the military would consider you a casualty and no longer combat effective. At sim realism, this means that a one to a couple of rounds to the torso or a single digit number of rounds to your limbs (depends on type of projectile), would make you a casualty and effectively "dead".

If you ask me, it's purely a matter of semantics, as Kills and Deaths sounds a lot better than Casualties Caused and Casualties Sustained. ;)


I completely see your point, it would be too slow paced to have a true medivac/medic system and I would agree Alliance needs to stay away from medics like the plauge. However I do think players need the ability to provide some sort of bandage,tourniquet,compress w/e to stop bleeding. Youre right that Multiple gunshots to the legs and arms technically wouldnt be instantly fatal in real life, but I think rushing to the conclusion of deeming them insta-dead is kinda like cutting a corner :/. How much more immersive would the game be if, say, you get hit in the arm by a rifle and in the game its portrayed as ''okay well your arm is hit. say hello to really bad weapon sway, longer reloads and you gotta use a bandage up to keep from bleeding out. Oh, you got shot in that same arm AGAIN?? Tough titty now youre permanently bleeding to death and doomed to only be able to use your sidearm.'' Leg shots should cause even rapider bleeding. Well in real life that .30-06 to the arm bone would render you COMPLETELY USELESS (good as dead) but I really think that instead of counting causualty-creating wounds as Instantly Fatal in the game, why not let the player at least fight until their blood runs out for that extra 10 or 20 seconds of frantic shooting?

In my mind your system Eric (no disrespect homeslice) would just piss people off. Like wow, one shot to the arm and it really kills me THAT fast? I really really believe it would be way better to have more than 3ish rounds to a limb indeed cause instant death, 2 to cause uncontrollable bleeding (maybe possible to stop bloodflow if teammate helps?) and 1 to be a serious hindrance requiring the player to take cover for 30 seconds or so and apply personal first aid.
Shots to the lower torso (if there is to be a 'lower torso' hitbox) should cause uncontrollable bleeding dooming the player to death in minutes. More than one insta death and obviously hits to the vitals = immediate death.

The Half-Life mod Firearms had a rudimentary bleeding and first aid system that really added alot to the games intensity. If you were out of bandages a single bullet could force you to scramble for a first aid station or you would bleed out. Very intense at times (could have been done better but i blame the hl1 engine) and quite satisfying to get a kill from an enemy bleeding out a minute after you hit em :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:48 pm 
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If I was going into combat, dragon skin would definitely be the way to go. This stuff stops almost everything, even armor piercing rounds. On future weapons, it even stood up to a grenade.

Quote:
I completely see your point, it would be too slow paced to have a true medivac/medic system and I would agree Alliance needs to stay away from medics like the plauge. However I do think players need the ability to provide some sort of bandage,tourniquet,compress w/e to stop bleeding.

Have you played Far Cry 2? The system was fantastic in terms of presentation. You could see yourself applying bandages, cauterizing wounds, removing bullets, etc. I know some of this might sound gross, but the game handled it well.

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Youre right that Multiple gunshots to the legs and arms technically wouldnt be instantly fatal in real life

Wait, but what about all those disabled soldiers who made it state side and lived to tell the tale? I think shooting someone in the leg should make them immobile, but they should still be able to fire back... Especially if it's a 9 mm. In many games, you can kill people by bringing out your side arm and just nailing them a few times in the foot.

How about location based damage for vehicles? I know alliance will primarily be focusing on the infantry experience, but presumably you will have to take out a vehicle. It would be nice if we could shoot out the tires and watch the car flip over, sending shrapnel every which way.

Speaking of shrapnel, another thing that I have always hoped for is taking some damage that is ejected from explosions..

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:05 am 
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Did you ever see the Mythbusters episode where they tried to get a car to flip over starting by shooting the tires and then hitting the tires with increasing amounts of explosives?

>they never got the car to flip

Look at GTA if you want somewhat realistic vehicle damage.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Spiffinz wrote:
AllianceEric wrote:
Since the fully realistic options would suck and we don't want magical battlefield healing, there will many real-world, survivable injuries that will "kill" you in Alliance. Not because you would instantly die in real life, but because the military would consider you a casualty and no longer combat effective. At sim realism, this means that a one to a couple of rounds to the torso or a single digit number of rounds to your limbs (depends on type of projectile), would make you a casualty and effectively "dead".


I completely see your point, it would be too slow paced to have a true medivac/medic system and I would agree Alliance needs to stay away from medics like the plauge. However I do think players need the ability to provide some sort of bandage,tourniquet,compress w/e to stop bleeding. Youre right that Multiple gunshots to the legs and arms technically wouldnt be instantly fatal in real life, but I think rushing to the conclusion of deeming them insta-dead is kinda like cutting a corner :/. How much more immersive would the game be if, say, you get hit in the arm by a rifle and in the game its portrayed as ''okay well your arm is hit. say hello to really bad weapon sway, longer reloads and you gotta use a bandage up to keep from bleeding out. Oh, you got shot in that same arm AGAIN?? Tough titty now youre permanently bleeding to death and doomed to only be able to use your sidearm.'' Leg shots should cause even rapider bleeding. Well in real life that .30-06 to the arm bone would render you COMPLETELY USELESS (good as dead) but I really think that instead of counting causualty-creating wounds as Instantly Fatal in the game, why not let the player at least fight until their blood runs out for that extra 10 or 20 seconds of frantic shooting?

Like wow, one shot to the arm and it really kills me THAT fast? I really really believe it would be way better to have more than 3ish rounds to a limb indeed cause instant death, 2 to cause uncontrollable bleeding (maybe possible to stop bloodflow if teammate helps?) and 1 to be a serious hindrance requiring the player to take cover for 30 seconds or so and apply personal first aid.


I think you may have misunderstood what I originally said, as we're almost in complete agreement. :)

1 to 2 shots to your limbs wouldn't kill you. Specifically, by a "single digit number of rounds" I meant just that, that somewhere between 2-9 rounds to your limbs would make you a casualty. I won't commit to any specific number, since this will absolutely be play tested and it will also vary by what round(s) actually hit you. My gut reaction is that it will *probably* be between 3-5 in Simulation mode, but we'll see. Again, this depends on what actually hits you, a point-blank, centered 12 gauge blast of 00 buckshot to your leg might make you a casualty right away.

Secondly, for sim mode location based damage in Alliance *will* affect how you physically perform (weapon sway, movement speed, etc).

Bleeding logic and self treatment is what may not be included. You either have to drastically simplify the injury model (relative to real life) or you actually model bones, major blood vessels, etc. The latter is impractical right now and the former means that you're adding the ability to treat yourself on the battlefield for realism's sake, but only with an arbitrary injury model.

IMO, the most important considerations then become the amount of fun added and difficulty of programming and implementation. For these reasons this simply isn't a high priority right now (though it might get gameplay tested at some point), as we want to maximize our development bang for the buck.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:51 pm 
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Yeah, if I may chime in here for a sec- I think the overarching, guiding principle here is to make the weapon and ballistic aspect of the game very true to life, and let the other pieces support that in a natural, conducive way.

An FPS is actually NOT a person simulator, just as a racing game (boy I sure do love this analogy :) ) is not a driver simulator.

A racing game is a drivING simulator, just as an FPS is a shootING simulator. What am I getting at? They're both piss poor at simulating you, as a person, actually doing any of these things. There are so many visual, audio, and physical cues that are off or absent in both genres, and will be until we have true VR or wired-into-your-synapses altered reality games. So I think the point should be to make the interface as fluid and natural as can be. You, as a person, will always have much faster reaction time and innate sensibility for location and mechanical manipulation than will your character on screen, just as in any driving game. So it's imperative to make that interface as smooth and fluid as possible. Sure, things like stamina, health, etc. should be put in, but at a certain point you have to wonder if too many effects on the player are just hampering that fluid interface.

Anyway, going off on a bit of a philosophical tangent, I admit, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you don't want to have a feature make you groan when something suddenly sucks on screen and breaks that fluid interface. We can (and should) make the weapon aspect pinpoint accurate, but we should make you feel as natural as possible when actually using those perfectly simulated weapons.

I think too many damage effects start to cloud that. It's a fine balance, to be sure, and one which we will strive to maintain, if at least through the various realism settings.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:58 am 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
Yeah, if I may chime in here for a sec- I think the overarching, guiding principle here is to make the weapon and ballistic aspect of the game very true to life, and let the other pieces support that in a natural, conducive way.

An FPS is actually NOT a person simulator, just as a racing game (boy I sure do love this analogy :) ) is not a driver simulator.

A racing game is a drivING simulator, just as an FPS is a shootING simulator. What am I getting at? They're both piss poor at simulating you, as a person, actually doing any of these things. There are so many visual, audio, and physical cues that are off or absent in both genres, and will be until we have true VR or wired-into-your-synapses altered reality games. So I think the point should be to make the interface as fluid and natural as can be. You, as a person, will always have much faster reaction time and innate sensibility for location and mechanical manipulation than will your character on screen, just as in any driving game. So it's imperative to make that interface as smooth and fluid as possible. Sure, things like stamina, health, etc. should be put in, but at a certain point you have to wonder if too many effects on the player are just hampering that fluid interface.

Anyway, going off on a bit of a philosophical tangent, I admit, but I guess what I'm getting at is that you don't want to have a feature make you groan when something suddenly sucks on screen and breaks that fluid interface. We can (and should) make the weapon aspect pinpoint accurate, but we should make you feel as natural as possible when actually using those perfectly simulated weapons.

I think too many damage effects start to cloud that. It's a fine balance, to be sure, and one which we will strive to maintain, if at least through the various realism settings.


I see your point crystal clear. Too fiddlesome a system to keep from dying could indeed take away from the fun factor. Like tards reviving you in BC2 only to be shot as soon as you pop back up (has literally happened to me 5 times in a row, i was screaming just let me die stupid medic i wanna play! x) )

AllianceEric wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood what I originally said, as we're almost in complete agreement. :)


Thanks for clarifying Eric, as I may have jumped to conclusions...
Im quite glad that sim mode will feature detract from your shooting ability when wounded.

However Alliance choses to handle player damage Im sure itll all work out given the attention to realistic ballistics n such. :)



Id like to ask if any kind of Kill-cam feature is planned? Lots of people hate it but I think having the option available to people (default server value being off) would be neat. One feature I thought up recently was a sort of reverse kill cam where you can choose to see from your death from your own perspective. Sooo many times in call of duty ive been in disbelief how in the hell someone either didnt die or wasnt shot so i think it might be interesting to let players see exactly where they were aiming and why they missed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:58 pm 
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There are so many visual, audio, and physical cues that are off or absent in both genres

I completely agree with with everything. Very well said, asi. Though, I think a lot more can be done in the fps genre to better recreate the feeling of being a person. Most shooters seem like they completely ignore the human aspect of the game. Many games go wrong when it comes to movement, which is basically one of the most important parts of a shooter, depending on how you look at it. It feels way too much like sliding and it doesn't do a very convincing job of telling you "you are looking through the eyes of a person. This is where motion bob and weapon bob come in. In most games, your weapon remains almost completely sedentary as you are walking and I think that this isn't conducive to immersion, as it makes you feel like your arms are bolted to the gun. We rarely see human hands holding the gun either, or doing things like moving the selector switch (I would expect your hands to become visible when you bring the weapon up to look down the sights.)

Like you said, it will never be 100% realistic until the game itself can be wired into our minds, but I think we can come very close before that. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Spiffinz wrote:
I'd like to ask if any kind of Kill-cam feature is planned? Lots of people hate it but I think having the option available to people (default server value being off) would be neat. One feature I thought up recently was a sort of reverse kill cam where you can choose to see from your death from your own perspective. Sooo many times in call of duty ive been in disbelief how in the hell someone either didnt die or wasnt shot so i think it might be interesting to let players see exactly where they were aiming and why they missed.

We do plan on including kill cams in Alliance, BUT they will all be controlled by servers settings (including on / off). We also have multiple types of cams in mind, but we want to see how well they work in practice first.

Kill cams in games tend to vary GREATLY in how much information they give up (aka how obvious they make where the attacker was). Since multiple kill cams aren't that difficult to implement (once you have one, the others are usually just different camera angles), it would be useful to have a continuum of kill-cam options that starts at off and roughly increases in how revealing they are. This way players can fine tune their preference, rather than only being allowed a binary choice.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 am 
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AllianceEric wrote:
Spiffinz wrote:
I'd like to ask if any kind of Kill-cam feature is planned? Lots of people hate it but I think having the option available to people (default server value being off) would be neat. One feature I thought up recently was a sort of reverse kill cam where you can choose to see from your death from your own perspective. Sooo many times in call of duty ive been in disbelief how in the hell someone either didnt die or wasnt shot so i think it might be interesting to let players see exactly where they were aiming and why they missed.

We do plan on including kill cams in Alliance, BUT they will all be controlled by servers settings (including on / off). We also have multiple types of cams in mind, but we want to see how well they work in practice first.

Kill cams in games tend to vary GREATLY in how much information they give up (aka how obvious they make where the attacker was). Since multiple kill cams aren't that difficult to implement (once you have one, the others are usually just different camera angles), it would be useful to have a continuum of kill-cam options that starts at off and roughly increases in how revealing they are. This way players can fine tune their preference, rather than only being allowed a binary choice.


That would be a really neat feature. Seeing as how Alliance is gun-centered I think theres lots of room to show different gun statistics like the bullets caliber, weight and velocity when it killed you. Maybe even toss in how much kinetic energy your character sustained before being killed n such

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:04 am 
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Spiffinz wrote:
That would be a really neat feature. Seeing as how Alliance is gun-centered I think theres lots of room to show different gun statistics like the bullets caliber, weight and velocity when it killed you. Maybe even toss in how much kinetic energy your character sustained before being killed n such

No comment.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Something that would be really neat for a kill cam would be like a something from the movie Wanted where you follow the bullet is it comes out the barrel and as it travels towards you (it could give you all the statistics while it was in mid air.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEpNmjy ... re=related

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:52 pm 
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No comment.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:18 pm 
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AllianceAsi wrote:
No comment.


uhhhh ohhh haha

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:58 pm 
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What?

<poker face>

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